Help! What have I become?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Gino believes Jesus is God thats great. Another poster here put on some info a while back about his belief in Oneness that this poster was excited about. It seemed more like Unitarianism to me. I like Gino so I hope I am wrong about him.

It seemed he was good with saying God was in Christ. Thats why we can say Jesus is God. I have a friend I have taught about the oneness of God several times. When I hear him teach Oneness he reduces it down to this. He was God because God was in him.

To me that is a rather shallow way of teaching Jesus is God. It is perhaps a bit better than the doctrine that Jesus is only an anointed man. But then again if thats all that made him God then that would be all he was. An anointed man. Like Moses. Like Elijah. God was in them. And also God is in us. That alone doesnt make anyone God.

I see almost no difference in Unitarianism and the doctrine you seem to be believing. Its not Trinity. Its not Arian. Its not Apostolic Oneness.

If Jesus did not pre exist his earthly life how did he see satan fall like lighning from Heaven?

Luke 10:18

Well...was there anything else Jesus knew about that we wasn't bodily present for? Maybe like the calling of Nathaniel...




Upon a quick Google I found this interesting article...ignore that its Catholic...that has nothing to do with the content...I had no idea about that prophecies importance from Zachariah!

[jediwill83]

https://detroitcatholic.com/news/gar...-meets-the-eye

[jmarkoa]

Everyone,

Thank you so much for all the input and questions and suggestions. But more importantly, thank you for being patient, kind and civil. I never really intended this thread to get into this deeper kind of discussion, but it really has been helpful, at least for me, I do know my thoughts and ideas try other peoples patience.

Please understand, I'm not really trying to change your viewpoint of what we all refer to as the Oneness of God. I respect others thoughts and think of them as brothers since we all have the Name applied to our lives. In the past, I think I believed exactly as most of you do now. I've read every one of those scriptures on the Oneness list, believed them the way you do, and thought in that very singular and simplified way of Jesus being everything from beginning to end. I say simple and single for me only, please don't take offence to that description. I must explain it that way, because looking back, my life was much simpler, easier; it's what my family, my friends, and most of my church really believed.

The original post is the "cliff notes version" of my life/experience/testimony, I guess you could call it that. Before that Saturday night, for many years I was just a "list" christian. I was trying to do everything right on the list I thought was important to God; going to church regularly, I wore the standardized "uniform", I paid my tithes and offerings, etc... I didn't really have the "Real, real" relationship with God. That Saturday I had come to the point where I needed and wanted more. I had to start somewhere, so I started with the most basic question, Who is God? I was determined to dig into the Word of God so I would be able to back up what I was telling others I believed, and I wanted to find it exactly the way I believed it, and written exactly that way in the verses of the Bible! No need to tell me that's not a very bright way of doing things! We all stumble to God in very different ways!

So, for me, my reading of so many other scriptures that were never really taught and explained at my church really challenged my personal view of God. For me, it was a crossroads; Do I accept what God is showing me in these scriptures also, or do I continue to cling only to my "personal favorites" list? Somehow, there was a different viewpoint out there of my smaller list of scriptures: A different viewpoint that also included these new scriptures I was being exposed to. It was that next day at church that I promised God I would NEVER let go of this new viewpoint, but only if this more complete understanding could be found in ALL of the scriptures. I'm still on a journey, but to this day, I have still not found a discrepancy. For me, God gave me that miraculous Sunday school lesson experience and it has become a memorial stone I look back on.

I just wanted to explain that to everyone, I'll try to go back and answer every question and thought all of you have taken the time to send me in the last few posts.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Everyone,

Thank you so much for all the input and questions and suggestions. But more importantly, thank you for being patient, kind and civil. I never really intended this thread to get into this deeper kind of discussion, but it really has been helpful, at least for me, I do know my thoughts and ideas try other peoples patience.

Please understand, I'm not really trying to change your viewpoint of what we all refer to as the Oneness of God. I respect others thoughts and think of them as brothers since we all have the Name applied to our lives. In the past, I think I believed exactly as most of you do now. I've read every one of those scriptures on the Oneness list, believed them the way you do, and thought in that very singular and simplified way of Jesus being everything from beginning to end. I say simple and single for me only, please don't take offence to that description. I must explain it that way, because looking back, my life was much simpler, easier; it's what my family, my friends, and most of my church really believed.

The original post is the "cliff notes version" of my life/experience/testimony, I guess you could call it that. Before that Saturday night, for many years I was just a "list" christian. I was trying to do everything right on the list I thought was important to God; going to church regularly, I wore the standardized "uniform", I paid my tithes and offerings, etc... I didn't really have the "Real, real" relationship with God. That Saturday I had come to the point where I needed and wanted more. I had to start somewhere, so I started with the most basic question, Who is God? I was determined to dig into the Word of God so I would be able to back up what I was telling others I believed, and I wanted to find it exactly the way I believed it, and written exactly that way in the verses of the Bible! No need to tell me that's not a very bright way of doing things! We all stumble to God in very different ways!

So, for me, my reading of so many other scriptures that were never really taught and explained at my church really challenged my personal view of God. For me, it was a crossroads; Do I accept what God is showing me in these scriptures also, or do I continue to cling only to my "personal favorites" list? Somehow, there was a different viewpoint out there of my smaller list of scriptures: A different viewpoint that also included these new scriptures I was being exposed to. It was that next day at church that I promised God I would NEVER let go of this new viewpoint, but only if this more complete understanding could be found in ALL of the scriptures. I'm still on a journey, but to this day, I have still not found a discrepancy. For me, God gave me that miraculous Sunday school lesson experience and it has become a memorial stone I look back on.

I just wanted to explain that to everyone, I'll try to go back and answer every question and thought all of you have taken the time to send me in the last few posts.

I don't intent to offend you but I want to give you a challenging thought. Your story is very typical of people falling in false doctrines: a moment of distrust and an itching to challenge what you have just accepted without examination before. This is not necessarily wrong, but it is how it starts. Add to that the fact that you were not well taught in the Scripture, and probably didn't even look for help with an open mind from those that were supposed to be more mature and help you to understand.

It is not the first time I hear that "experience". It would have been much better for you instead of seeking hidden treasures and accepting the first thought that came your mind back then (which you attribute to God), you would have gone more praying, fasting, seeking God's will for your life.

Look back and answer this question to yourself. Where you really closed to God fasting, praying, serving him when that happened? Or were you just trying to conform to the social norm? Did you distrust your own thoughts right away and seek God, and other elders in your church for more input? Or did you make a covenant with your soul to not listen to anything that goes against your new discovery?

Your experience signals to me of another important issue in many apostolic pentecostal churches: lack of teaching.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

In that verse of Revelation:He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Who overcame? My understanding is that Jesus overcame, and I must overcome. We will both be sons of God. we are co-heirs of that inheritance from God. That inheritance, I believe, includes the new creation of a new world and heaven described here coming from God. Also:

"...and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

To whom? I believe those whom:

"...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain..."

I've cried, had pain, and will eventually will die. The same can be said of Jesus.

Again, my belief is that this is God being the Father over ALL his sons, including Jesus.

Originally Posted by coksiw

Do you believe Jesus had the divine nature? Do you believe Jesus became divine at some point?

Of course. But we may be using the word divine differently. Here's how I think of the word:

2 Peter 1:4

"...ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Jesus is the first fruits, then us at His coming. I believe that future promise, to all those that overcome, they will ALL be partakers of the divine nature, but they will NOT all become God.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Who overcame? My understanding is that Jesus overcame, and I must overcome. We will both be sons of God. we are co-heirs of that inheritance from God. That inheritance, I believe, includes the new creation of a new world and heaven described here coming from God. Also:

"...and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

To whom? I believe those whom:

"...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain..."

I've cried, had pain, and will eventually will die. The same can be said of Jesus.

Again, my belief is that this is God being the Father over ALL his sons, including Jesus.



Of course. But we may be using the word divine differently. Here's how I think of the word:

2 Peter 1:4

"...ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Jesus is the first fruits, then us at His coming. I believe that future promise, to all those that overcome, they will ALL be partakers of the divine nature, but they will NOT all become God.

OK, so if I'm not mistaken, your belief is what it is called Unitarianism. I'll come back to post more soon.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Everyone,

Thank you so much for all the input and questions and suggestions. But more importantly, thank you for being patient, kind and civil. I never really intended this thread to get into this deeper kind of discussion, but it really has been helpful, at least for me, I do know my thoughts and ideas try other peoples patience.

Please understand, I'm not really trying to change your viewpoint of what we all refer to as the Oneness of God. I respect others thoughts and think of them as brothers since we all have the Name applied to our lives. In the past, I think I believed exactly as most of you do now. I've read every one of those scriptures on the Oneness list, believed them the way you do, and thought in that very singular and simplified way of Jesus being everything from beginning to end. I say simple and single for me only, please don't take offence to that description. I must explain it that way, because looking back, my life was much simpler, easier; it's what my family, my friends, and most of my church really believed.

The original post is the "cliff notes version" of my life/experience/testimony, I guess you could call it that. Before that Saturday night, for many years I was just a "list" christian. I was trying to do everything right on the list I thought was important to God; going to church regularly, I wore the standardized "uniform", I paid my tithes and offerings, etc... I didn't really have the "Real, real" relationship with God. That Saturday I had come to the point where I needed and wanted more. I had to start somewhere, so I started with the most basic question, Who is God? I was determined to dig into the Word of God so I would be able to back up what I was telling others I believed, and I wanted to find it exactly the way I believed it, and written exactly that way in the verses of the Bible! No need to tell me that's not a very bright way of doing things! We all stumble to God in very different ways!

So, for me, my reading of so many other scriptures that were never really taught and explained at my church really challenged my personal view of God. For me, it was a crossroads; Do I accept what God is showing me in these scriptures also, or do I continue to cling only to my "personal favorites" list? Somehow, there was a different viewpoint out there of my smaller list of scriptures: A different viewpoint that also included these new scriptures I was being exposed to. It was that next day at church that I promised God I would NEVER let go of this new viewpoint, but only if this more complete understanding could be found in ALL of the scriptures. I'm still on a journey, but to this day, I have still not found a discrepancy. For me, God gave me that miraculous Sunday school lesson experience and it has become a memorial stone I look back on.

I just wanted to explain that to everyone, I'll try to go back and answer every question and thought all of you have taken the time to send me in the last few posts.

I have to be honest. This kind of thread becomes very tiresome and here's why (nothing personal). I constantly run across people saying "I came across Scriptures that challenged what I previously believed so I have to be faithful to what God is showing me." Besides the obvious question - "What makes you think GOD is 'showing you something'?" - these "new light revelations" always seem to result in the denial or ignoring of other Scriptures. It's like "Once I believed in A,B,C but then I saw X,Y,Z so now I'm going to ignore and deny A,B,C (and D and E too) and think I've now got the whole truth."

I mean seriously, it's just so tediously tiring. Can't anyone just accept ALL the Scriptures? They tell us Jesus is the Son of God. But they also tell He IS God. Why must people constantly think this is a contradiction, that they have to pick one or the other?

I also notice almost ALL the people I meet who fall into this trap were raised in some church environment. Doesn't matter which one, doesn't matter what they gravitate towards, it follows the same pattern. I guessed being raised in a modern American religious institution along with public schooling just renders people incapable of seeing the obvious?

I mean the Bible BLATANTLY CALLS JESUS CHRIST OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR, but no we can't have that.

Jesus is the Son. And He is God. Not because "muh theology" but because the Bible just flat out says so.

Is there anybody left who will just let God's Word be true? Take it for what it says?

I am thinking the modern Oneness movement is wrecked. People supposedly raised in it yet as an adult they suddenly discover Jesus is the Son of God? What kind of Oneness were they raised in? Meanwhile we have Oneness Pentecostal preachers scoffing at the idea we have to stick with the Bible. No wonder Oneness people grow up and "suddenly discover" Jesus is the Son of God, and have their world thrown upside down.

Religion has become a huge mess.

/rant

Meanwhile, thanks for sharing. Honestly I just find it sad, because I honestly think you were raised with a defective view of things. Which that being shattered, you have overcorrected to another error.

I wasn't raised in church. I suspect I should thank God for that. I became "Oneness" by a revelation. I can't describe it any other way. It wasn't through hearing it affirmed over and over. It was by reading Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19, and Isaiah 9:6, a couple days after I got the Holy Ghost in a Baptist church homeless shelter. Those verses weren't explained, I was just told to read them. And those verses explained what I EXPERIENCED when I got the Holy Ghost, I just couldn't put it into words previously. And, it was literally several years LATER before I even heard the term "Oneness" and discovered there was even any debate about the "godhead".

I guess some get a revelation, and some just get handed a tradition. Makes me sad to think about.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God,...

I understand this is one of those scriptures that appear to say Jesus and God are the same. But, I see a BIG difference in an invisible God, and a visible image of God. For me, it more clearly illustrates their differences. I'm supposed to be the image of Christ, but surely no one believes I should BE Christ.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...why are you trying to envision a God OTHER THAN Jesus?

And that is everything. That question assumes Jesus is a GOD. I understand him to have been a MAN. At his birth, during his entire life, and even at his death. He was a man. He then died. The risen Jesus had a glorified body. He has a body, but not one like a man. When I say man, I mean one with a corruptible body that must be overcome.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This describes how Jesus is the new "mouthpiece" of God that replaced the prophets of the Old Testament. I really love the description of a God who appoints an heir, His Son! Here is a description of exactly how much love a father can have toward a son! This entire world is made by God with His Son in mind! Even from the very beginning!

Amazing how this describes Jesus himself dying for our sins! I was always taught that his sinless life was only possible because He WAS God living as a man. Be here it clearly shows Jesus doing the work, then sitting on the right hand of God! The church I attend has had Brother Bernard come and teach this as something completely different than it says. When explaining this verse, he joking asked, Was he sitting on His lap? So yes, I think I already know your viewpoint on this. Mine has changed to just believe it the way its stated. That faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe has turned on a different light in my head.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 Timothy 6:14-16 KJV
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

I'm not sure what you are saying with these verses. I believe "in his times" refers to how Jesus will be the "King of kings, and Lord of lords" in the millennial reign, and verse 16 describes his current position of "dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto" which is another way of saying sitting at the right hand of God.

Originally Posted by Esaias

If you look into God's face whose face will you see?

You just answered this with 1 Timothy 6:16.

"...dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..."

That Light is God "which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", so how can you ask, "If you look into God's face..."? This is NOT true of Jesus! Many saw Him as He was. And this is not the only scripture that states No man hath seen God at any time. I know you don't believe this, and I know I can never get you to say it or to think it, or even respond to it, but surely you've read it and have a way of explaining how it fits into your sameness understanding? I had to change my entire viewpoint on Oneness to be able to say I believe exactly what these scriptures say! It was difficult, but NOW all these other Bible scriptures fit and there are no discrepancies that I can find!

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Welp...that settles any questions I had. I'm good!

Welcome to the discussion! Its been interesting! Any other thoughts?