Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker/The PTL Club Controversy

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I never really got that doctrine. Don't get me wrong, I grew up in a church where men were all cleanshaven, so I prefer to be so (even though I'm lazy and only shave once every 2-3 weeks), but the Bible doesn't give any indication that we shouldn't grow one, and we know for a fact that Jesus had a beard.

Coksiw beat me to it, but can you point even to an underlying principle that bans or forbids it? Consider the old standard of "no TV". While the Scripture doesn't explicitly come out and say "Thou shalt not watch TV", the concept was based on the Biblical principle of not putting unclean things before your eyes. Point me to the principle that forbids having a beard.

Going back to my previous comment about principles, the Bible tells us to dress modestly. Showing off skin with the intent of alluring others is not dressing modestly.

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.

Yeah I gotta agree in the sense that what God has just brought me through was done nearly 80% based on listening to the voice of Jesus and letting Him guide my steps...I was dealing with stuff that there was no explict recipe in scripture to lay out how to proceed...but God indeed answers His children when they cry and and He will indeed speak and lead them to victory.

[Esaias]

"Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit."


1. The prophets and apostles got the word and it became Scripture. Are you suggesting your revelations are new Scripture?

2. The leading of the Spirit in God's people is not AWAY from the Word but INTO the Word:

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What is the "truth"?

John 17:17 KJV
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The leading of the Spirit does not replace or contradict the scripture.

1 Corinthians 14:29 KJV
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1 John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 KJV
Quench not the Spirit. [20] Despise not prophesyings. [21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The revelations people get must be JUDGED, TESTED, PROVEN. This is where the Scriptures come in:

Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 KJV
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When "spiritual impulses and revelations" contradict the Scripture, the revelation is false:

Romans 3:4 KJV
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Isaiah 8:19-20 KJV
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? [20] To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[Esaias]

"Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to,"

Yes you should. As one who claims to TEACH you better be lined up book chapter and verse with the Scripture:

1 Peter 4:11 KJV
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That bolded part doesn't mean to put your own opinions on a pedestal as if they were the oracles of God. It means if you speak it must be IN LINE WITH and REFLECT the oracles of God, which are the Scriptures:

Romans 3:2 KJV
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

When you are asked to show the Scripture for your doctrine, it is reasonable to give the Scriptures. Otherwise you plainly admit your doctrine is NOT Bible doctrine, but your personal doctrine. We are warned against this:

Matthew 15:7-9 KJV
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:6-9 KJV
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

There is no Scripture prohibiting beards. But that is not the end of the story. God positively commands men to have a beard. To teach a man ought not to have a beard, that God disapproves of men having beards, is to teach bold faced lies and to promote blatant, obvious, provable sin.

But men love to teach as doctrine their own man made commandments. Men love to REJECT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD in order to KEEP their own traditions. According to Jesus, such people worship God IN VAIN and are lost.

[Esaias]

Once again:

Command, approved example, necessary inference.

Command:

Leviticus 19:27 KJV
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

(Brenton transl. of Greek LXX: Ye shall not make a round cutting of the hair of your head, nor disfigure your beard.)

Approved examples:

Ex 1: When half the beard was shaved off as an insult, the response of David (who knew, honoured, and sought to follow all of God's instructions) was to order the half-shaved men to wait until the shaved half grew back, and NOT rather to shave the whole face so as to secure uniformity. Obviously, what was important was the beard rather than just looking presentable. It was better to grow the beard back than to be cleanshaven -

2 Samuel 10:4-5 KJV
Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away. [5] When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.

Ex 2: Messiah was to have a beard, and the enemies of Messiah sought to remove His beard -

Isaiah 50:6 KJV
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Necessary inference:

Since only men normally grow beards, and since the appearance of the beard marks the boy's entry into manhood, and since God commands numerous distinctions of gender to be observed and maintained both in clothing, temperament, mannerism, and even hair length, it follows that to shave the beard for any reason other than an exceptional reason violates God's prescribed order of male-female differentiation. In other words, it is a type of gender-bending trannyism akin to cross dressing or men having long flowing womanly hair or men being effeminate or sodomites.

* Note: the Divine command for men not to mar their beards (ie to maintain a full beard) DOES have certain Divinely prescribed exceptions, as in the completion of a Nazarite vow, in regards to the treatment of leprosies, etc. But as is usually the case, "the exception proves the rule."

* Note: The command does not specify the LENGTH of the beard, only that the "corners" not be disfigured. That is, the BORDER or "hairline" is to be kept naturally. Thus partial beards like goatees etc are expressly prohibited.

* Note: Since sin is transgression of the law, and since the law prohibits the shaving of the beard except in certain exceptional cases, it is a SIN for a man to shave the beard except in those exceptional cases. This should come as no surprise. After all, how many assert it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair (even though technically there is no actual command in the law prohibiting a woman cutting her hair)? Well, there IS a direct command FROM GOD ALMIGHTY commanding men to maintain a natural beard.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.

“Some will be saved in spite of the church.”
~ Murray Burr

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

As a matter of curiosity, it seems that they used to trim their mustache:

2 Samuel 19:24
Now Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king. And he had not cared for his feet, nor trimmed his mustache, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he returned in peace.

Trimming the mustache/beard is part of taking care of yourself, like bathing and paring your nails. That is different than removing the boundaries of the beard, or removing it altogether.

[Esaias]

"Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! "

And when a person does pray about it, and God shows them something contrary to the preacher's tradition/opinion, they are told what? "Well, keep praying! And we'll be praying for you! And in the meantime, we'll basically treat you like just a visitor and not truly as a brother. Until you come around to our tradition."

[Esaias]

The whole world actually hates the Bible. Including the religious world. Why? Because it exposes them as they truly are:

Hebrews 4:12-13 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [13] Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Therefore they engage in any and all mental and rhetorical gymnastics to NOT actually do the things the Bible says to do, and to excuse their rejections of the Words of God. All the while many of them give lip service to God and His Word, just like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and false believers have always done. There is truly nothing new under the sun.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Has it ever occurred to you what a simple matter it would be for David Bernard to debate me and settle once and for all whether the UPCI doctrine on tithe is scriptural? Yet it never happens. Why?

Originally Posted by diakonos

Have you reached out to DKB for a debate?

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No I haven’t.