Disfunctional people and the love of God.

[nahkoe]

Awhile back, my pastor made a comment that I thought about quite a bit and then filed away. I've been thinking about it again lately.

He said that when people come into the church, they do fine for awhile. As long as there are things they need to do, repent, change, etc. They understand that language, they get things being wrong with them. But when the love of God comes into the picture, the pure, amazing, powerful love of God, they back up. Some back right out of the church, some struggle awhile and eventually find their footing. He said the more disfunctional they are before coming into the church, the more difficult this is for them.

Or something like that. lol It's been several months.

Thoughts?

Ways to make it easier to stay on track? heh

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

Awhile back, my pastor made a comment that I thought about quite a bit and then filed away. I've been thinking about it again lately.

He said that when people come into the church, they do fine for awhile. As long as there are things they need to do, repent, change, etc. They understand that language, they get things being wrong with them. But when the love of God comes into the picture, the pure, amazing, powerful love of God, they back up. Some back right out of the church, some struggle awhile and eventually find their footing. He said the more disfunctional they are before coming into the church, the more difficult this is for them.

Or something like that. lol It's been several months.

Thoughts?

Ways to make it easier to stay on track? heh

Actually, I look at this from a different perspective. The more dysfunctional they were; the more they love Jesus, and the better saints they make.

It is people who think they are 'normal' who have a more difficult time changing and adjusting to the life of mercy and grace. They try to 'work' their way into heaven.

The dysfunctional know they can't get to heaven except for the grace of God and they are the easiest to change and adapt to Christian living...it is what they were hoping and praying for

Blessings, Rhoni

[SDG]

The more dysfunctional they were; the more they love Jesus, and the better saints they make.

It is people who think they are 'normal' who have a more difficult time changing and adjusting to the life of mercy and grace. They try to 'work' their way into heaven.

The dysfunctional know they can't get to heaven except for the grace of God and they are the easiest to change and adapt to Christian living...it is what they were hoping and praying for

Amen, Sister Rhoni .... I would like to add to your thoughts.

I was thinking about this during the week and especially during the last two days.

As a teacher of Special Education ... and well aware that many of us have various needs and disabilities ... I worry that the church is not addressing those needs.

In the classroom, we modify instruction and make accommodations for those w/ physical disabilities, learning disabilities and even emotional disturbance.

In the church ... I see that some have made some strides to address the needs of those w/ physical and maybe even learning disabilities - i.e. sign language, wheel chair ramps, etc.

We even give those w/ learning disabilities a pass when we deal w/ them ... passing off their quirks as "they ain't just all there ... you gotta be patient w/ him/her"

Yet, I am deeply concerned about how we have dealt w/ those w/ emotional disturbance and mental illness. Our theology and practical approach to those w/ these needs is not scriptural, unloving and unhealthy - IMO.

Most in the church utilize the 'TOUGH LOVE' approach ... when dealing w/ the wide realm of confusing issues that are inherent w/ those w/ mental illness and emotional disturbance.

We chalk off their behaviors as ... they're just choosing to live in sin or disobedience. "I'm not going to excuse that sin or behavior because they've been in church long enough" ....

We often give folks time lines to shape up or ship out ... and are willing to even shun the brother or sister if they don't straighten up.

We must first realize that those w/ emotional disturbance/mental illness have a real disability... we may not see it w/ our own physical eyes ... but it's real ...

Whether it be because of a trauma ... or chemical imbalance ... or neurological defect ... it's REAL.

We are patient and loving w/ the person in the wheelchair who may be obstructing our path ... yet when we deal w/ those w/ mental or emotional issues .... we blow up ... and lose it.

I submit that we should not excuse sinful behavior or give a license to sin ... but are not our illnesses a product of sin?

Rhoni, the more dysfunctional they were ... the more love Jesus showed them.

Those who knew better he was hard on ... but those who were in need ... were shown incredible amounts of patience, love and grace.

Some will say "well ... I treat everyone the same" ... "I treat everyone fairly".

Yet, I fear some measure fairness based on the offering equality of results ....

Fairness is meeting everyone's need. Giving them what is necessary and beneficial as to having an equal opportunity to succeed.

Also understanding that they may never attain what others have.

That's where grace comes in ...

Not everything is fixed, peachy and restored when someone prays through at the altar ... we've got a microwave mentality in Pentecost.

Thank God for His Grace ... I need it more than others and some more than me.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Amen, Sister Rhoni .... I would like to add to your thoughts.

I was thinking about this during the week and especially during the last two days.

As a teacher of Special Education ... and well aware that many of us have various needs and disabilities ... I worry that the church is not addressing those needs.

In the classroom, we modify instruction and make accommodations for those w/ physical disabilities, learning disabilities and even emotional disturbance.

In the church ... I see that some have made some strides to address the needs of those w/ physical and maybe even learning disabilities - i.e. sign language, wheel chair ramps, etc.

We even give those w/ learning disabilities a pass when we deal w/ them ... passing off their quirks as "they ain't just all there ... you gotta be patient w/ him/her"

Yet, I am deeply concerned about how we have dealt w/ those w/ emotional disturbance and mental illness. Our theology and practical approach to those w/ these needs is not scriptural, unloving and unhealthy - IMO.

Most in the church utilize the 'TOUGH LOVE' approach ... when dealing w/ the wide realm of confusing issues that are inherent w/ those w/ mental illness and emotional disturbance.

We chalk off their behaviors as ... they're just choosing to live in sin or disobedience. "I'm not going to excuse that sin or behavior because they've been in church long enough" ....

We often give folks time lines to shape up or ship out ... and are willing to even shun the brother or sister if they don't straighten up.

We must first realize that those w/ emotional disturbance/mental illness have a real disability... we may not see it w/ our own physical eyes ... but it's real ...

Whether it be because of a trauma ... or chemical imbalance ... or neurological defect ... it's REAL.

We are patient and loving w/ the person in the wheelchair who may be obstructing our path ... yet when we deal w/ those w/ mental or emotional issues .... we blow up ... and lose it.

I submit that we should not excuse sinful behavior or give a license to sin ... but are not our illnesses a product of sin?

Rhoni, the more dysfunctional they were ... the more love Jesus showed them.

Those who knew better he was hard on ... but those who were in need ... were shown incredible amounts of patience, love and grace.

Some will say "well ... I treat everyone the same" ... "I treat everyone fairly".

Yet, I fear some measure fairness based on the offering equality of results ....

Fairness is meeting everyone's need. Giving them what is necessary and beneficial as to having an equal opportunity to succeed.

Also understanding that they may never attain what others have.

That's where grace comes in ...

Not everything is fixed, peachy and restored when someone prays through at the altar ... we've got a microwave mentality in Pentecost.

Thank God for His Grace ... I need it more than others and some more than me.

Dan,

This is an awesome post. My mother and I just had lunch and she was reminiscing about he experience when she first came into the Apostolic way. She was known for her "shouting in the spirit".

A critical person asked the Pastor why my mother had to rejoice and 'shout' like that in every service? The wise Pastor said, "You don't know what she has to put up with when she goes home!"

There are many mentally ill people who look for peace in our churches and sometimes we shun them or mark them and never try to meet their needs. This is why it is so important to have a counselor on staff, separate from the Pastor who needs time to minister to other needs, in order to help bring stability to a person's life. This is as much a part of 'discipling' as any thing else.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Carpenter]

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social. In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social. In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

• dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
• assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
• education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.

Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

• dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
• assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
• education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.

Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni

Well, of course you are correct however I think what you said is an exception instead of the rule save your second point. I think in many cases the church is seen as being on the side of the fence where the grass is greenest, however you cannot outrun your dysfunctionality by virtue of simply running. There IS a healing that needs to take place and yes, the church is a great place to find it.

I have found, at least in the case of most psychiatrists, they become psychiatrists to reconcile their own psychoses...

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

There are some good thought and some misconceptions here:

• dysfunction crosses racial, socioeconomic lines, classes, and cultures.
• assimilation into a church culture does nto necessarily mean healing has happened.
• education, those with more or less, does not determine dysfunctionality! Some of the most 'dysfucntional' people I know are therapists and highly educated people. At least they know it, try to understand it, and try to overcome it.

Just some things to think about.

Blessings, Rhoni

I think quite a few tend to over-educate themselves in an attempt to leave the past behind. The more you know, the less you have to feel? Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. I do think plenty find healing along the way though.

As for dysfunction (Oh every time I see that I cringe knowing I misspelled it in my OP) crossing all lines, it just does. No matter how put together you are, no matter how good your life is today, tomorrow could be a completely different story. Don't tell me if your spouse died, or a young child, or who knows what one event could impact you more than any other, don't tell me you wouldn't enter a state of dysfunction. Some events leave scars, some leave open wounds. You can't know before hand how you're going to respond or to what level something will impact you. All you can really do is be grateful for what you have today and pray for the grace you need tomorrow.

[nahkoe]

I can't let this post go..altho I'm not sure I'm going to do a real great job at responding.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I can't imagine someone with a dysfunctional background coming into the church and being scared off by intimacy whether it be spiritual or social.

You can't imagine a person who has been hurt in every important relationship they've ever had struggling with a relationship with God? "The Bride of Christ" very nearly kept me away from God. Add in a few more things and it starts looking like a miracle that I'm where I am....

Originally Posted by Carpenter

In fact, these are the things that a church thrives on for growth. It is the highly disfuntional who lock into the structured culture because of the lack of structure they had on the outside.

This is what my pastor was talking about, the people who thrive on the structure but never make it to a relationship.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I will also caution a guess that the more dysfunctional people are probably less educated, come from less than stable family relationships, and are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scales.

Birth and death are universal, so is dysfunction. Even the most functional of people go through times of dysfunction in their lives.

Ok honestly? I really need to reign in my attitude here. Cuz let me tell you I have attitude. I wonder what it would be like to be so naive? [/quote]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Unfortunately the love of God comes in second after a person assimilates into the culture, and maybe, just maybe this could be the way it is designed whether the church recognizes or realizes it or not. Why the thrust, NOT to encourage a spiritual personal relationship with the Lord, but instead adherance to those cultural aspects that will "...bring you into a greater and stronger relationship with Jesus."

Once again, I'm grateful for where God has placed me. The focus is strictly on developing a relationship with God. The love of God comes into play first, the outside extra stuff follows that. This is also the context of the sermon where the original statement was made. That people coming in can handle the rules, and will cling to them, but the rules don't save anyone, they don't heal anyone, they don't set anyone free, only a relationship with Jesus will do those things. And yes, I see what I said in the original post..lol

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I am not just talking about the UPC, but you gotta admit you will be hard pressed to find a more rigid social and culturally structured organization.

I'm not UPC and never have been, so your point here is rather lost on me.

[staysharp]

"The Bride of Christ" very nearly kept me away from God. Add in a few more things and it starts looking like a miracle that I'm where I am....

You and 4,564,894,564 other people.