Tragedy of War RECOVERED! LISTEN! - Page 18

tv1a · #**171** 09-17-2013, 04:55 PM

OPII is correct. I was exposed to the inner workings of the mothership. The lies and character assassination of the Westburg influenced crowd. I read Fudge's book when I was still in the mothership. Daniel's motive is to preserve history that obviously the powers that be who run the mothership wants buried.

The million dollar question is why a religious institution who emphasizes truth at any costs lies about its past and about integral members of its past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldPathsII

Ferd and gang want to ignore the absolute hell on earth this man went through. He was hugged, fussed over, told it was the greatest message in 40 years, and then fired and destroyed by the man who said the words.

How easy it would be for heresy to prevail if we allowed religious systems to escape the truth of their abuses. Thanks to people like Dan Alicea, silence isn't an option.

Originalist · #**172** 09-17-2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tv1a

OPII is correct. I was exposed to the inner workings of the mothership. The lies and character assassination of the Westburg influenced crowd. I read Fudge's book when I was still in the mothership. Daniel's motive is to preserve history that obviously the powers that be who run the mothership wants buried.

The million dollar question is why a religious institution who emphasizes truth at any costs lies about its past and about integral members of its past.

I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

Baron1710 · #**173** 09-17-2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

Sarah · #**174** 09-17-2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

Have no need for the cross?? Good grief, Baron...without the cross there could be no water/spirit doctrine!

I have to be missing something here. Surely you don't think we're that ignorant...

navygoat1998 · #**175** 09-17-2013, 05:36 PM

tv1a · #**176** 09-17-2013, 05:37 PM

Fudge's book shows the side of history Bernard, Pugh, Judd, and others on the revisionist committee wanted silenced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

Baron1710 · #**177** 09-17-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah

Have no need for the cross?? Good grief, Baron...without the cross there could be no water/spirit doctrine!

I have to be missing something here. Surely you don't think we're that ignorant...

Have you read the book?

Sarah · #**178** 09-17-2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Have you read the book?

No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

RandyWayne · #**179** 09-17-2013, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah

No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

I know your talking to Baron, but during my stint in the org during the 80's it was baptism in Jesus name, tongue talking, and strict adherence to holiness standards, and obeying the "man of gawd!" that saved. Forget about the cross. I NEVER heard grace mentioned.

Originalist · #**180** 09-17-2013, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

I can attest that this statement simply is not true, though I am probably not a true believer in the "water/Spirit doctrine" as it is taught in the UPCI in that I do not believe that the reference to "water" in John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism.

However, I do affirm that baptism is a step towards the new birth and , in most cases, precedes the new birth. There are many verses that affirm this truth even without using John 3:5.