Tragedy of War RECOVERED! LISTEN!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I know your talking to Baron, but during my stint in the org during the 80's it was baptism in Jesus name, tongue talking, and strict adherence to holiness standards, and obeying the "man of gawd!" that saved. Forget about the cross. I NEVER heard grace mentioned.

I believe you are accurately describing the experience you had, just as I am accurately describing mine.

[Praxeas]

I hear grace and the cross often

[StillStanding]

From my experience of growing up in the UPC, the cross was preached and was an important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It just wasn't AS important as Acts 2:38!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by StillStanding

From my experience of growing up in the UPC, the cross was preached and was an important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It just wasn't AS important as Acts 2:38!

I can see how this could happen if one preaches Acts 2:38 as the gospel instead of preaching it as the correct response to the gospel. These types do seem to have a problem with spiritual pride and actually make an idol out of a great truth, in the same way Charismatics often do with sign gifts.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

Sure that's just what Jesus needs, another Christian denomination. What ever happened to the church being the church, that they all may be one, reconciliation. New, you don't like it go start your own organization. What a witness to the world.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Well, I do know why it was brought up. Several of us feel this is a message that is a historical marker in the life of an organization. The message and the events surrounding it set the trajectory of my religious life.

Ferd, the attitude that those of us who have generations in this movement ought to walk away and never say another word about t is baffling.

Originally Posted by Sarah

So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.
Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

Oh, ok, lets think about this for a moment....how did the generation of Oneness Pentecostals react to the Assembly of God general conference of 1916? Did they just say "well, we got voted out, lets move on with our lives guys, no need to discuss this anymore." After a few years or decades did they just forget?

NO. In fact it is still occasionally whined about how mean those ole Assembly of God guys were. Its PRESERVED in all the histories written by oneness Pentecostals. So history is only worth preserving when THEY are the ones who played the martyr, while those who were victims of similar injustices are told "just get over it".

Its called a double standard, and sadly, its what the UPC has majored on.

Lets move on, fine. We need to, but I find it ironic that nearly 100 years later some in the UPC still decry the happenings of the AG conference, while telling others to just shut up about what happened a mere 20 years ago.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Sarah

No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

I will let Mr. Fudge speak for himself about the title of the book. This is an excerpt of an email he sent me.

"Three days ago I was with Loren Yadon and he mentioned your name. I can well imagine that few people connected to the UPC want to review the book. I am also aware that the UPC takes the view that no impartial reviewer can possible see any merit in the book. Good luck.

I did consider other titles for the book and as the introduction to the book states I was well aware that the title would cause some discomfort. Two points: One, I like attention getting titles. Second, it is my firm belief that the title is accurate. In terms of the doctrine of salvation, I could find little evidence that the preaching of the message and work of the cross figures centrally in a context dominated by water and Spirit. At one point I thought about just using the subtitle, or substituting "Water and Spirit" for "Christianity Without the Cross". In the end, I stayed with the latter."

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Oh, ok, lets think about this for a moment....how did the generation of Oneness Pentecostals react to the Assembly of God general conference of 1916? Did they just say "well, we got voted out, lets move on with our lives guys, no need to discuss this anymore." After a few years or decades did they just forget?

NO. In fact it is still occasionally whined about how mean those ole Assembly of God guys were. Its PRESERVED in all the histories written by oneness Pentecostals. So history is only worth preserving when THEY are the ones who played the martyr, while those who were victims of similar injustices are told "just get over it".

Its called a double standard, and sadly, its what the UPC has majored on.

Lets move on, fine. We need to, but I find it ironic that nearly 100 years later some in the UPC still decry the happenings of the AG conference, while telling others to just shut up about what happened a mere 20 years ago.

Funny years ago I talked to my old pastor and he asked me where I was going to church and I told the Assembly of God, all he could say was why the Assembly??? I told him because it was not UPC, and all he said was yea I know that but why the Assemblies???

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sarah

So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.

Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

It wasn't "Push came to shove"...it's not like the One steppers were trying to take over.

They became One because they ALL believed in Repentance, Water baptism in the name of Jesus and the Baptism of the Spirit with speaking in tongues as well as the "One God" message. They simply did not place the same emphasis on when and how salvation occurs

[Praxeas]

Maybe Fudge is coming from a hyper "Grace only" position I often hear today where if you believe ANYTHING other than "Faith in the finished work on the cross" (ie, repentance, baptism), you believe in salvation without the cross...which is factually not true (a strawman argument actually)

Every Christian believes what Jesus did on the cross was necessary and it does in fact get taught in Oneness churches