“Just call me pastor, son”.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Matthew 23:11-12 (NKJV) 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Mark 10:42-44 (NKJV) 42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.


We don't work as in the world. We don't need to use titles to show respect within the church, and to bring strict separation between brethren. We ought to think of each other as brethren, as a Family. We are not to replicate the world and have Kings, and Dukes, and Knights, etc...

2 Peter 3:15 (NKJV) 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

[Act 12:2 KJV] And he killed {Pastor?} James the brother of John with the sword.
[Act 12:17 KJV] But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto {Pastor?} James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.
[Act 21:18 KJV] And the [day] following {Apostle?} Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
[Gal 2:9 KJV] And when {Pastor?} James, {Apostle?} Cephas, and {Apostle?} John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

[1Co 15:5 KJV] And that he was seen of {Missionary?} Cephas, then of the twelve:
[1Co 15:7 KJV] After that, he was seen of {Pastor?} James; then of all the apostles.

This is the thing, they didn't use titles, except when trying to make a distinction of who they were talking about:

Acts 21:8 (NKJV) 8 On the next day we who were Paul's companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.

Brother,

I should have just shut up and let you speak. Forgive me for not addressing you as pastor. It’s obvious you fill the role. (I certainly mean no disrespect).

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Matthew 23:11-12 (NKJV) 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Brother, how do you know who is the greatest?

Originally Posted by coksiw

Mark 10:42-44 (NKJV) 42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.

*Red Highlighted; are titles used to describe the individual/s.

Originally Posted by coksiw

We don't work as in the world. We don't need to use titles to show respect within the church, and to bring strict separation between brethren. We ought to think of each other as brethren, as a Family. We are not to replicate the world and have Kings, and Dukes, and Knights, etc...

So you agree that titles are used to show respect?

Originally Posted by coksiw

2 Peter 3:15 (NKJV) 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

[Act 12:2 KJV] And he killed {Pastor?} James the brother of John with the sword.
[Act 12:17 KJV] But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto {Pastor?} James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.
[Act 21:18 KJV] And the [day] following {Apostle?} Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
[Gal 2:9 KJV] And when {Pastor?} James, {Apostle?} Cephas, and {Apostle?} John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

[1Co 15:5 KJV] And that he was seen of {Missionary?} Cephas, then of the twelve:
[1Co 15:7 KJV] After that, he was seen of {Pastor?} James; then of all the apostles.

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Originally Posted by coksiw

This is the thing, they didn't use titles, except when trying to make a distinction of who they were talking about:

Acts 21:8 (NKJV) 8 On the next day we who were Paul's companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.

Why didn't they call Philip an apostle? Because he didn't do the work of an apostle.

They called Paul an Apostle, because he fulfilled that role in his calling. Samuel was a prophet because that was the role God called him into.

Imagine a servant calling his lord by the first name???? Now you can ask, "are you saying, the Pastor, or ministry is our lord?" No, Im not, but the Bible said he that is great among you, let them become your servant.

[coksiw]

Nicodemus,
You are contradicting yourself. You are not letting the Bible speak for itself. Yes, there are functions and offices within the church, and we could use it to just clarify who is doing what and who we are referring to as necessary, not as a title but as a clarification as necessary.

The early Christians in Acts followed the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ regarding this topic. Will you?

BTW, Luke did use titles, ... to refer to earthly kings of this world:
Acts 25:13 (NKJV) And after some days King Agrippa and Bernice came to Caesarea to greet Festus.

Also, Paul did use it:
Acts 26:1-2 (NKJV) 1 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You are permitted to speak for yourself."
So Paul stretched out his hand and answered for himself: 2 "I think myself happy, King Agrippa, because today I shall answer for myself before you concerning all the things of which I am accused by the Jews,

Use it for the world personalities if you will, but it is not appropriate for within the church as I showed you with Biblical Evidences. Show respect with action instead: with your submission, with your tongue.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother,

I should have just shut up and let you speak. Forgive me for not addressing you as pastor. It’s obvious you fill the role. (I certainly mean no disrespect).

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother,

Just quote scripture where someone is referred to as pastor so and so. If I remember correctly the leaders are required to be servants, which is what minister meant in the Bible. We have changed the definition of minister.

If we are truly Apostolic, we should recognize that we are supposed to ALL possess spiritual gifts. The gifts are diverse but they are all of the same Spirit. We worship the Spirit, not the human. Or we should.

Does anyone ever address someone gifted in tongues and interpretation by an exalted title? Why the pastor? If brother so and so is sufficient for an elder or deacon, (an uncompensated office) why should it not be sufficient for the pastor?

Why is there no scripture instructing us to address the pastor as a higher up deserving a special title?

If it is important as preachers seem to think it is, it sure seems that there would be scripture to instruct us to do so.

I have heard so many visiting preachers spend so much time bragging on the pastor. It brings to mind a scripture.

1Corinthians 1:29

[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

These preachers must not believe God is present in the building. They sure seem to glorify the flesh a lot. Maybe it’s a money thing. Bragging on the one who makes the decision to call them to preach is probably beneficial to their bank account.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Who is the "he"?
If Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, Apostles, and Prophets are not important, then "he" should never gave them to the church. For perfecting the saints, for the work of the ministry, or for the edifying of the body.

But there is a reason why, 'he" didn't just say everyone will be for the work of the ministry, perfecting the saints, and edifying the body. Those offices, positions that Paul mentioned are specifically mentioned for a reason.

I don't need to show you scripture that states, "Pastor Nicodemus" to understand how important it is being a Pastor.

Why didn't "he" just say, I give you servants? Because, that is a spirit we should all possess, yet not everyone is called to be a Pastor, or Prophet, or an Aspostle.

I Corinthians 12:28-31
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Not everyone is an Apostle, (I know you don't like titles, but that's what it says) not everyone is a Prophet, (, sorry there it is again) not everyone interprets. Maybe God should've given Paul a proper title for interpreter, but he didn't.

The point is not everyone is called to be a Pastor, or a Teacher in the realm of that office. Now, you can probably teach with the best of them, yet that may not be your ministry.

*Red Highlighted*
Can you tell me what the "Best Gifts" are, and why would Paul say that?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Nicodemus,
You are contradicting yourself. You are not letting the Bible speak for itself. Yes, there are functions and offices within the church, and we could use it to just clarify who is doing what and who we are referring to as necessary, not as a title but as a clarification as necessary.

The early Christians in Acts followed the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ regarding this topic. Will you?

BTW, Luke did use titles, ... to refer to earthly kings of this world:
Acts 25:13 (NKJV) And after some days King Agrippa and Bernice came to Caesarea to greet Festus.

Also, Paul did use it:
Acts 26:1-2 (NKJV) 1 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You are permitted to speak for yourself."
So Paul stretched out his hand and answered for himself: 2 "I think myself happy, King Agrippa, because today I shall answer for myself before you concerning all the things of which I am accused by the Jews,

Use it for the world personalities if you will, but it is not appropriate for within the church as I showed you with Biblical Evidences. Show respect with action instead: with your submission, with your tongue.

I have not contradicted myself.

I posted that some will use the titles as a show of respect. Of whom I am part of, if there is a lady in the church I will call her Sis. if there is a man, I will call him Brother. If I know the individual that Pastors, I will call him Pastor, if there is an Bishop, I will call him Bishop so and so, NOT because of the man, but because of the office.

I posted people in the church they show more respect to people in the world. And you posted scripture on the church respected outside authority. Paul according to some should've just called King Agrippa, Agrippa. I wonder what would've happened.

Titles have been here for a long time. To use those titles doesn't mean that the individual the title is referring to is portraying his dominance. Its simply respect for the individual fulfilling the calling.

Numbers 12:6
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

I Kings 21:18
Arise, go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, which is in Samaria: behold, he is in the vineyard of Naboth, whither he is gone down to possess it.

John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a ruler of Israel, and knowest not these things?

You mentioned its ok to use functions and offices to show clarification. Why?

[coksiw]

You are mixing “role” identification with titles. Titles go in front of the name or they are used to call the attention of the person in question.
That is different than saying “there are prophets, apostles, teachers in the congregation”.

One thing is referring to roles and functions, and another thing to use titles to praise the individual in public, which was what the Pharisees loved people did to them.

Anyways, I showed Scriptures of the NT church practice, and you showed me Scriptures of role identification within the Church which are not titles.

I think you find necessary the titles in front of names to show due consideration of function within the church.
The problem with that is what our Rabbi Jesus said: don’t do it, you are brethren.
Those that love to be referred to with titles are looking for prominence among the brethren.

[1 God]

Do we call Jesus by his name or by his titles? Do we call each other by our name or by our titles?

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

In my opinion I wouldn't go as far as to say chains of formalism. At least not all of Pentecost. I do believe some men love titles, and others believe titles and the use of them show a respect for the position or office.

To use the titles Elder, Bishop, Pastor, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, Saint, Prophet, Brother, Sister in my opinion isn't chains. Its shows respect to the individual, I wouldn't go up to a lady in the church and call her by her first name. Neither would I go up to a Pastor, or a Bishop and say, "hey Joe, hows it going?"

I will say this, that some believers have more respect for the world than the church. They'll show the utmost respect for the man that signs their checks, yet, they'll nitpick a leader in the church without even blinking! The president of the United States could be in their presence and they'll call him the proper title by the office he holds, yet when it comes to ministry, they have not a problem bringing up issues to condemn them to hell.

Do your children call you pastor or dad?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

You are mixing “role” identification with titles. Titles go in front of the name or they are used to call the attention of the person in question.
That is different than saying “there are prophets, apostles, teachers in the congregation”.

Im not talking about role identification, Im talking about the calling. I was posting about respect to call a Pastor a Pastor. If there is an Evangelist, I will call him evangelist. Why, because that's what God called him to do. I said it before, I respect the office, it has nothing to do with the man, yet the office God called him into.

It almost feels like everyone in your church does what they feel, no one has an office in the spirit, everyone has a calling of every office. Is there a leader in your church? Is everyone a leader?