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Old 10-17-2017, 09:21 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Ah yes. Here we go again.

In this month's IBC Perspectives' editorial section, massive alarm bells were going off over the so-called "Light Doctrine". This teaching supposedly states that God will judge all men by the light of the doctrinal understanding they held, and possibly not judge them for not understanding the "whole truth".

The IBC Perspective's editorial page had an emboldened disclaimer at the top of the page stressing that the views being espoused were those of the readers only. Yet, they did not have a single contributor representing an affirmation of the Light Doctrine. Some of the contributors were demanding that the UPCI add yet another part to the "ministerial affirmation" where ministers would have to affirm they do not believe anyone who has not embraced the UPCI understanding of the new birth will be saved. DUMB! DUMB ! DUMB!

Do these people have NOTHING better to do? Are we now becoming the thought police? Is it no longer enough that we teach what we feel the scriptures are saying and let God be the final judge on what constitutes "obeying Acts:28"? Do we still not realize how it is these knee-jerk reactions that turn people off to even hearing us out?

In the first place, nobody is saying that anyone will be saved outside of Jesus Christ and regeneration by his Spirit. So obviously, someone is feeling insecure because someone was not being "hard" enough.

I wonder what brought it on this time? Did Anthony Mangum allow a Trinitarian minister to testify at BOTT? SAY IT ISN'T SO !!!!

One reader admitted that the forefathers of the movement were more open and accepting of Trinitarians initially, but became firm in their stance over time. That is indeed true, all of it. However, becoming firm in their stand did not mean they consigned Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians to hell. Evidence shows they continued to fellowship with, preach for and embrace their former associates.

More and more I am glad I chose to let my license lapse.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:34 AM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Ah yes. Here we go again.

In this month's IBC Perspectives' editorial section, massive alarm bells were going off over the so-called "Light Doctrine". This teaching supposedly states that God will judge all men by the light of the doctrinal understanding they held, and possibly not judge them for not understanding the "whole truth".

The IBC Perspective's editorial page had an emboldened disclaimer at the top of the page stressing that the views being espoused were those of the readers only. Yet, they did not have a single contributor representing an affirmation of the Light Doctrine. Some of the contributors were demanding that the UPCI add yet another part to the "ministerial affirmation" where ministers would have to affirm they do not believe anyone who has not embraced the UPCI understanding of the new birth will be saved. DUMB! DUMB ! DUMB!

Do these people have NOTHING better to do? Are we now becoming the thought police? Is it no longer enough that we teach what we feel the scriptures are saying and let God be the final judge on what constitutes "obeying Acts:28"? Do we still not realize how it is these knee-jerk reactions that turn people off to even hearing us out?

In the first place, nobody is saying that anyone will be saved outside of Jesus Christ and regeneration by his Spirit. So obviously, someone is feeling insecure because someone was not being "hard" enough.

I wonder what brought it on this time? Did Anthony Mangum allow a Trinitarian minister to testify at BOTT? SAY IT ISN'T SO !!!!

One reader admitted that the forefathers of the movement were more open and accepting of Trinitarians initially, but became firm in their stance over time. That is indeed true, all of it. However, becoming firm in their stand did not mean they consigned Holy Ghost filled Trinitarians to hell. Evidence shows they continued to fellowship with, preach for and embrace their former associates.

More and more I am glad I chose to let my license lapse.

I find it almost impossible to be an "open-minded" Apostolic when it comes to salvation because the Apostolic's way of presenting the Gospel precludes anyone else from being saved unless they do things just the way the Apostolics say it should be done.

They couldn't even tolerate the people who believed in water baptism in Jesus Name but differed with them on the point of salvation!
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:51 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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They couldn't even tolerate the people who believed in water baptism in Jesus Name but differed with them on the point of salvation!

Yet the movement was founded by people who agreed on the Jesus name mode of baptism, but disagreed on the point salvation occurs. I'm glad to be out of the "mainstream", and I'm a so-called "3-stepper".

Last edited by Originalist; 10-17-2017 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:58 AM
derAlte derAlte is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

I have a bit of difficulty with folks who want to do God's job in judging whether or not a person has jumped through all the hoops required for salvation. Funerals especially bother me when ministers of all stripes get up and waltz the deceased into heaven. God only truly knows the hearts of man.

However, it seems logical that if one follows the reasoning put forth by holders of the light doctrine, if we really love people, it would be better if all of us would just shut up about Acts 2:38 and let people go to heaven in the light they have instead of sending them to hell by preaching the full counsel of God. Why in the world did Peter proclaim the Acts 2:38 message at all when asked "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Under that reasoning, all the missionaries should be brought home, for God's sake, before they send anyone else to hell! They're a menace!

What about the folks who have never heard the truth? I say let God be their judge. For us to pass judgment is way above our pay grade. As one old preacher says it, "there is only One God, and I ain't Him."

Last edited by derAlte; 10-17-2017 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:11 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

I think the "light doctrine" is error. It actually makes the case that the more ignorant we are of the Gospel, the greater our chance of salvation by walking in what little light we know. I can't buy that.

I propose a different option for those who wish to believe that perhaps God might have mercy on some of those who do not know or understand the fullness of NT salvation. It's called "Sovereign Savior Doctrine". It affirms that God is sovereign and has all power and knowledge. Only He can have mercy on those sincere souls who didn't understand the fullness of truth. However, there are some requirements to this understanding:
- One must have demonstrated sincere repentance.
- One must have been water baptized, even if under the traditional formula. Only God knows the sincerity of their desire to be obedient.
- One must have received the Holy Spirit, or some supernatural experience relating to the Holy Spirit (stammering lips, tongues, "slain in the Spirit", interpretation, visions, prophesy, healing, miracles, etc.)
In essence, the person must have been sincerely obedient to the command to be water baptized and must have had a supernatural experience in the Holy Ghost. This position proposes that God might choose to be merciful to the sincere soul, even if the finer details of their being born again of water and spirit doesn't completely match up with our Apostolic understanding. However, both water and Spirit must be factors in their Christian experience.
Romans 9:15 (ESV)
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Mark 9:38-39 (ESV)
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me."
John 3:5 (ESV)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Luke 12:48 (ESV)
48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Last edited by Aquila; 10-17-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-17-2017, 02:34 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I think the "light doctrine" is error. It actually makes the case that the more ignorant we are of the Gospel, the greater our chance of salvation by walking in what little light we know. I can't buy that.

I propose a different option for those who wish to believe that perhaps God might have mercy on some of those who do not know or understand the fullness of NT salvation. It's called "Sovereign Savior Doctrine". It affirms that God is sovereign and has all power and knowledge. Only He can have mercy on those sincere souls who didn't understand the fullness of truth. However, there are some requirements to this understanding:
- One must have demonstrated sincere repentance.
- One must have been water baptized, even if under the traditional formula. Only God knows the sincerity of their desire to be obedient.
- One must have received the Holy Spirit, or some supernatural experience relating to the Holy Spirit (stammering lips, tongues, "slain in the Spirit", interpretation, visions, prophesy, healing, miracles, etc.)
In essence, the person must have been sincerely obedient to the command to be water baptized and must have had a supernatural experience in the Holy Ghost. This position proposes that God might choose to be merciful to the sincere soul, even if the finer details of their being born again of water and spirit doesn't completely match up with our Apostolic understanding. However, both water and Spirit must be factors in their Christian experience.
Romans 9:15 (ESV)
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Mark 9:38-39 (ESV)
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me."
John 3:5 (ESV)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Luke 12:48 (ESV)
48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
Fair enough.

It just cracks me up when a guy like Lee Stoneking will claim that the prayers of Trinitarians have no power, even though those prayers are prayed in the name of Jesus. How can he say that with a straight face and still consider someone like Holy Ghost filled David Wilkerson whose prayers and ministry shook New York City? Furthermore, why did God choose Wilkerson for that task and not someone from the UPC? Yet, some in our movement would say Wilkerson is in hell right now even though he had repented, was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. To them, he is in hell tonight for the simple fact that God could not forgive him, all because a preacher who baptized him had an imperfect understanding of the proper words to say when baptizing. It matters not that God bore Wlikerson witness giving him the like precious gift that he gave those in Acts 2. It does not matter that Wilkerson was freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It does not matter that God sent him and equipped him to do a mighty work that has rarely been paralleled by anyone in the UPC.

No, God's salvation is so weak, that a mortal man can keep a sincere, repentant convert from receiving it simply by misunderstanding what constitutes a correct vocalization. Just think about that for a minute. Let that sink in. THAT is the weak, puny and pathetic salvation that many on this board believe and teach. The power in the name of Jesus is so weak that its effectiveness is depended upon it being said at the right place, at the right moment,by the right person. The blood of Calvary is so fragile that it's efficiency to pardon can be held back by the wrong words said over someone!

Thank God I have never been assimilated into that Borg. Resistance is not futile.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:00 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

There is one thing that I have found absolutely repulsive.

This Apostolic Pastor had very, very good intentions and (and I THINK he) was trying to present the salvation plan in a way that would not offend me. He knew my background, knew some of the same people I knew and he also knew what I believed, didn't believed, etc from a conversation with him and his son.

I am telling you, sincere, good Apostolic family-- very loving people. They pastor a small church in __________, Nowhere-lina.

One night, while doing the altar call, and I was the only non-traditional Apostolic in the sanctuary for that service, he (the Pastor) stumbled and sounded like he was a little bit nervous as he tried to explain salvation in a way that would stay true to his conscience and reach out to mine.

I know he meant well, but I was absolutely repulsed.

Why? Because if I go to a church and they call themselves Apostolic, then that church needs to be Apostolic. It was one of the MOST UNCOMFORTABLE situations I had ever been in during a church service.

I knew what they believed and he knew what I believed and it seemed he stumbled over his presentation of the Gospel because he was trying to woo me to come to the altar or join his church.

The best he could have done is just stay true to the message he was ordained to preach.

I would NEVER ask an Apostolic Pastor to change anything about their presentation of the Gospel! I mean, I know life isn't all about me, but at that moment, I felt so uncomfortable, so bad, and literally sick to my stomach.

And this is why I cannot join an Apostolic church. I would cause situations like that or worse, cause someone else to stumble and question what they believe because somehow someone asks me a question and I give them an answer that doesn't quite fit with the message the Pastor and the church stands for and I REFUSE to be the one that KNOWINGLY pulls cards from someone's stack because I don't want to ever be the reason why someone questions "all that they know about God", only to become twice the devil he/she was before because something I said to them in person shook their flimsy foundation.

I don't like millstones!
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Last edited by Jermyn Davidson; 10-17-2017 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:10 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
There is one thing that I have found absolutely repulsive.

This Apostolic Pastor had very, very good intentions and (and I THINK he) was trying to present the salvation plan in a way that would not offend me. He knew my background, knew some of the same people I knew and he also knew what I believed, didn't believed, etc from a conversation with him and his son.

I am telling you, sincere, good Apostolic family-- very loving people. They pastor a small church in __________, Nowhere-lina.

One night, while doing the altar call, and I was the only non-traditional Apostolic in the sanctuary for that service, he (the Pastor) stumbled and sounded like he was a little bit nervous as he tried to explain salvation in a way that would stay true to his conscience and reach out to mine.

I know he meant well, but I was absolutely repulsed.

Why? Because if I go to a church and they call themselves Apostolic, then that church needs to be Apostolic. It was one of the MOST UNCOMFORTABLE situations I had ever been in during a church service.

I knew what they believed and he knew what I believed and it seemed he stumbled over his presentation of the Gospel because he was trying to woo me to come to the altar or join his church.

The best he could have done is just stay true to the message he was ordained to preach.

I would NEVER ask an Apostolic Pastor to change anything about their presentation of the Gospel! I mean, I know life isn't all about me, but at that moment, I felt so uncomfortable, so bad, and literally sick to my stomach.

And this is why I cannot join an Apostolic church. I would cause situations like that or worse, cause someone else to stumble and question what they believe because somehow someone asks me a question and I give them an answer that doesn't quite fit with the message the Pastor and the church stands for and I REFUSE to be the one that KNOWINGLY pulls cards from someone's stack because I don't want to ever be the reason why someone questions "all that they know about God", only to become twice the devil he/she was before because something I said to them in person shook their flimsy foundation.

I don't like millstones!

I can just imagine how you must have felt. Awkward, indeed. It seems Apostolics have the most problem with this kind of stuff. They really do not know how to dialog, or to let people serve God where they are at. Frankly, I think it is wrong for a pastor to abuse his pulpit like the one you described did, on any topic. There is nothing that grinds my gears like having a discussion with a pastor in the privacy of his office, have him offer very little counsel or admonishment in that setting, and preach at me from the pulpit the next chance he gets.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:25 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
I can just imagine how you must have felt. Awkward, indeed. It seems Apostolics have the most problem with this kind of stuff. They really do not know how to dialog, or to let people serve God where they are at. Frankly, I think it is wrong for a pastor to abuse his pulpit like the one you described did, on any topic. There is nothing that grinds my gears like having a discussion with a pastor in the privacy of his office, have him offer very little counsel or admonishment in that setting, and preach at me from the pulpit the next chance he gets.
The thing is, I know for a fact that he meant no harm. I understood what he was trying to do. He had no ill-will whatsoever.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:29 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Fair enough.

It just cracks me up when a guy like Lee Stoneking will claim that the prayers of Trinitarians have no power, even though those prayers are prayed in the name of Jesus. How can he say that with a straight face and still consider someone like Holy Ghost filled David Wilkerson whose prayers and ministry shook New York City? Furthermore, why did God choose Wilkerson for that task and not someone from the UPC? Yet, some in our movement would say Wilkerson is in hell right now even though he had repented, was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. To them, he is in hell tonight for the simple fact that God could not forgive him, all because a preacher who baptized him had an imperfect understanding of the proper words to say when baptizing. It matters not that God bore Wlikerson witness giving him the like precious gift that he gave those in Acts 2. It does not matter that Wilkerson was freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It does not matter that God sent him and equipped him to do a mighty work that has rarely been paralleled by anyone in the UPC.

No, God's salvation is so weak, that a mortal man can keep a sincere, repentant convert from receiving it simply by misunderstanding what constitutes a correct vocalization. Just think about that for a minute. Let that sink in. THAT is the weak, puny and pathetic salvation that many on this board believe and teach. The power in the name of Jesus is so weak that its effectiveness is depended upon it being said at the right place, at the right moment,by the right person. The blood of Calvary is so fragile that it's efficiency to pardon can be held back by the wrong words said over someone!

Thank God I have never been assimilated into that Borg. Resistance is not futile.
I completely understand.

That's one of the things about the institutional church I don't like. It's a system built to preserve itself; it's power, assets, and money. It's a business. And when you have a product, you have to claim that competing products are insufficient compared to your own.

If one honestly reviews Christian history they have to come to the realization that the Apostolic Pentecostal churches are the revival that the Reformers, Protestants, etc. prayed for.
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