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  #31  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:28 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: When God speaks

As Esaias points out, the key is in this part:

Matthew 6:7 (NKJV) And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard (their request) for their many words .

Good stuff.
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  #32  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:30 PM
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Re: When God speaks

Another thing I notice in looking at the subject, is pagans did not believe their gods were omniscient. Thus, they had to inform them of every detail. They also had to PERSUADE their gods by means of erudition. Pagan prayers are generally speaking rhetorical declamations no different that classical legal declamations made by orators before courts, in which flattery of the court and audience was of equal value as detailed specific itemization of the cause or petition. All designed for persuasion.

This is why Jesus said don't use vain repetitions (me battalogein) which is synonymous with "much speaking" (polylogia) for the purpose of being heard by God.

It is not about simple repetitions of praise:

Revelation 4:8-11 KJV
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him ; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. [9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, [10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, [11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It is not about the mere length of prayer, for some of Jesus' own prayers are very long (John chapter 17, for example), as are many of the prayers of David and other saints.

It is not about repeating prayers, or requests, for we are instructed by Christ to do just that (Luke 18:1-8).

It must then be an instruction to not pray as the heathen do, in that they formulate long oratorical compositions for the purpose of informing and persuading the deity to respond favorably to them.
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  #33  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:30 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: When God speaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
I think the point is that many people are stuck in vain repetition. Just my thoughts.
That’s the point.

Many people believe they can say a five minute repeating prayer before bed and that’s good enough. Why? Because that’s what they’re taught. Talking or praying with God is complete faith, for saints to go around a church saying, “Oh Lord, Thank you Jesus” for a half hour while your mind is off on your job or your checkbook, that’s not praying. Repeating “the Lords Prayer” isn’t praying.

If you look at Abraham, Adam, Samuel, Moses the list can go on, how is their prayer (relationship) life different from ours? The Lord told a few, with Moses I speak face to face. Does God speak to you or me face to face? He didn’t come to Elijah in the wind or the fire, he came to him in a still small voice. Can God speak to us in an audible voice? I believe he can, I personally believe he doesn’t to many is because we would talk ourselves out of what just happened. The faith isn’t there.

For someone to say that talking to God is repeating yourself especially for a preacher to say that shows lack of spiritual maturity. Even people that never prayed in their life, I tell them talk to God like you do to your wife or your best friend, talked to him for five, ten minutes. Talk to him while your driving to work. Moses was commanded to speak to the rock, speak to him.
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  #34  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:32 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: When God speaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
As Esaias points out, the key is in this part:

Matthew 6:7 (NKJV) And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard (their request) for their many words .

Good stuff.
Exactly.
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  #35  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:41 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: When God speaks

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Another thing I notice in looking at the subject, is pagans did not believe their gods were omniscient. Thus, they had to inform them of every detail. They also had to PERSUADE their gods by means of erudition. Pagan prayers are generally speaking rhetorical declamations no different that classical legal declamations made by orators before courts, in which flattery of the court and audience was of equal value as detailed specific itemization of the cause or petition. All designed for persuasion.

This is why Jesus said don't use vain repetitions (me battalogein) which is synonymous with "much speaking" (polylogia) for the purpose of being heard by God.

It is not about simple repetitions of praise:

Revelation 4:8-11 KJV
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him ; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. [9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, [10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, [11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It is not about the mere length of prayer, for some of Jesus' own prayers are very long (John chapter 17, for example), as are many of the prayers of David and other saints.

It is not about repeating prayers, or requests, for we are instructed by Christ to do just that (Luke 18:1-8).

It must then be an instruction to not pray as the heathen do, in that they formulate long oratorical compositions for the purpose of informing and persuading the deity to respond favorably to them.
Do you think "battalogein" here is being used not necessarily to describe the action but to compare the action to the equivalent effect? a figure of speech?
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  #36  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:42 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: When God speaks

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
When God speaks to me he usually does so literally, (aka, in writing). I have had some definite impressions that I know was the Holy Ghost and I’m grateful for those. I have never heard an audible voice that I attributed to the actual voice of God. I do believe that God has spoken to me many times through people, sometimes but not always preachers.
I would like your thoughts on the Lord’s Prayer.

Are we to repeat the Lord’s Prayer or is there a deeper meaning to it?
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  #37  
Old 08-05-2021, 04:48 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: When God speaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Do you think "battalogein" here is being used not necessarily to describe the action but to compare the action to the equivalent effect? a figure of speech?
Not sure what you mean.

I see me battalogein as the negatived verb form of polylogia. So batta and poly are synonyms. They mean literally "many words". The idea is that the heathen believed they would move their gods to action by their "many words", that is, their bloated rhetorical compositions they called prayers.

In contrast, God knows all things, so we aren't praying in order to notify Him of anything. And He is our Father, so there's no need for rhetorical flattery and persuasion per se. I think it all is pointing to our view of God and our relationship with Him.
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  #38  
Old 08-05-2021, 05:01 PM
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Re: When God speaks

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

In contrast, God knows all things, so we aren't praying in order to notify Him of anything. And He is our Father, so there's no need for rhetorical flattery and persuasion per se. I think it all is pointing to our view of God and our relationship with Him.
I've mentioned this before in other threads on prayer, since God knows everything we need before we ask, it follows that prayer is NOT for the purpose of giving God some new information. We aren't sending information to God when we communicate with Him via prayer.

So then prayer isn't for HIS benefit. Rather it's for OUR benefit. Prayer doesn't send our information or data to God. Rather it is a means God has put in place by which HIS data or information comes to us, if that makes sense.

In prayer we recite certain attributes of God, we state our petitions, we give praise to Him, we thank Him, etc. All this is designed to communicate or transfer information - NOT from us to Him, but from Him to us! In prayer we contact God, and His Truth is brought to us, we are both reminded of His Truths and we speak His Truths. And thus we imitate Him who speaks reality into existence.

The sword of the Spirit is the rhema or spoken word of God. In prayer we speak the word of God. Thus we are conformed to His image, we are transformed into His likeness. God begins to manifest Himself in flesh through us, that is, He manifests His truth through us and our life.
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  #39  
Old 08-05-2021, 05:31 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: When God speaks

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
I would like your thoughts on the Lord’s Prayer.

Are we to repeat the Lord’s Prayer or is there a deeper meaning to it?
I think repeating the Lord’s Prayer has certain value, but I think it is primarily for us to study and use as a learning tool and for an opportunity to know and understand God, just a little more.

The two versions of the Lord’s Prayer are slightly different. If you were to just memorize it and repeat it as a mantra you would need to choose one version and go with that. In my opinion that really wouldn’t do it justice.

The importance of the Lord’s Prayer is not to be understated. It was an answer to a direct question. But we shouldn’t only focus on the Prayer. We should always read the surrounding text to establish whether or not context is added. In this case Jesus goes full bore into using the Prayer for a teaching model. He doesn’t miss a beat, but uses the phrases to teach different principles as though He is explaining why he used them.

So I believe it would be wrong to believe that there is not a deeper meaning. Jesus obviously demonstrated that there was. It is really a very condensed message that He expands on immediately. So it’s a learning opportunity, and a teaching opportunity, and it is packed with deeper meaning. In the two versions, even the lessons vary, which would lead me to believe that it’s much more than a prayer model. It is a teaching model and a learning something about God model as well. And that’s the very minimum that it could be. And that is , I believe exactly what we are using it for here on AFF.

At least that’s how I see it.

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 08-05-2021 at 05:34 PM.
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  #40  
Old 08-05-2021, 05:37 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: When God speaks

Quote:
So then prayer isn't for HIS benefit. Rather it's for OUR benefit.
Song of Songs 2:14 KJVS
[14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
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