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04-23-2021, 12:15 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,440
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
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Originally Posted by Pressing-On
It is very simple.
One divine person exists even though linguistics forces Jesus to use plural pronouns.
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There is one "divine person" within the Deity (or Godhead, if you prefer) of God the Father. This does not force Jesus to do anything. He doesn't have to bend the meaning of language and grammar just to do what? Make things more esoteric? Obscure His nature and identity so only the truly initiated can wrangle with each other on a message board forum nearly 2,000 years later?
The Greek language of Christ's day was not so cumbersome or incapable so as to force Jesus to describe Himself and His relationship with His Father in any kind of inaccurate or misleading ways.
This is a cop-out.
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Jesus identifies Himself as the indwelling agent. Because He cannot indwell us with His human form, He must do so by His Spirit. That is what forces Him into plural language as in John 14:13.
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No it's not. Jesus says simply, when He wants to refer to Himself, ego meaning "I", the first person singular pronoun. When He speaks directly to the Father about the Father, He uses the second person singular pronoun su meaning "you", as in John 12:28.
Further, in John 14:3, Jesus says "If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, you may be also (Compare to John 17:5 and Christ's use of "Your own self", speaking of the Father).
Then, in John 14:18, " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come you".
Then John 14:20, "... I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you".
And in John 17:23, Jesus again reiterates " I in them...", then in John 17:26, He says the same again " I in them".
These are all references to Jesus returning to them, not in physical body just after the resurrection, but in and as part of the Holy Spirit, first on Pentecost, then continuously from there.
So, as you can see, Jesus and the author of John can easily use the first person singular pronoun I to refer to Himself, in spirit form, living and being inside of His disciples.
Your claim then is demonstrably false.
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When we are describing the various modes of God’s existence, i.e., the Father and Son, we are also forced into plural pronouns. Again, in that existence and distinction “together” in one sentence, we must use plural pronouns. Often times we may say - they and them. However, it doesn’t cause us to commit to a Trinitarian view as two divine “persons”.
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Who said it causes anyone to commit to a Trinitarian view? And it's not because we are describing the various modes of God's existence (something the Scripture never teaches, i.e. that God has "modes"), but because of the language and grammar itself. It is the very words of Jesus and His apostles that causes us to use plural pronouns, because they themselves used them.
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I would add a caveat, in that, I don’t believe everyone who says they are Trinitarian actually are, in the true sense of the definition. However, forgive me, when I read your posts, something feels off and I can’t shake it. I, of course, want to push back.
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Subjective dissimulation. How about you seriously take into consideration whether or not the person who is off is you and your aggressive attempts at smearing me with libelous accusations?
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Because of Isaiah 9:6 being a basis of description, our view can only be a plurality of modes and never a plurality of “persons”.
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False. Isaiah 9:6 is not a basis of description causing anyone to a plurality of modes view on the Godhead.
Rather, it is an a priori devotion to a doctrinal position that causes you to view the Deity of God in terms of modes.
This is provable because Trinitarians think Isaiah 9:6 causes them to see a plurality of persons. Why? A priori devotion to a doctrinal position.
Both of which, are blind to the truth of Isaiah 9:6 and what is being said there by the prophet.
And oh, by the way...
I see you never interacted with John 17:5 and my comments on it. How come?
You jumped right into this nonsense about Jesus being forced to use plural pronouns, ignoring the fact that in John 17:5, Jesus doesn't use a single plural pronoun at all.
He uses the first person singular to refer to Himself, and then He uses the second person singular to refer to the Father and His "Self".
If you or anyone would like to address that FACT, and go from there, please be my guest.
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PS. Here is a good thread on Isaiah 9:6, if anyone is interested:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ghlight=Isaiah
Last edited by votivesoul; 04-23-2021 at 12:25 PM.
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04-23-2021, 01:23 PM
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Not riding the train
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 48,541
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
There is one "divine person" within the Deity (or Godhead, if you prefer) of God the Father. This does not force Jesus to do anything. He doesn't have to bend the meaning of language and grammar just to do what? Make things more esoteric? Obscure His nature and identity so only the truly initiated can wrangle with each other on a message board forum nearly 2,000 years later?
The Greek language of Christ's day was not so cumbersome or incapable so as to force Jesus to describe Himself and His relationship with His Father in any kind of inaccurate or misleading ways.
This is a cop-out.
No it's not. Jesus says simply, when He wants to refer to Himself, ego meaning "I", the first person singular pronoun. When He speaks directly to the Father about the Father, He uses the second person singular pronoun su meaning "you", as in John 12:28.
Further, in John 14:3, Jesus says "If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, you may be also (Compare to John 17:5 and Christ's use of "Your own self", speaking of the Father).
Then, in John 14:18, " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come you".
Then John 14:20, "... I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you".
And in John 17:23, Jesus again reiterates " I in them...", then in John 17:26, He says the same again " I in them".
These are all references to Jesus returning to them, not in physical body just after the resurrection, but in and as part of the Holy Spirit, first on Pentecost, then continuously from there.
So, as you can see, Jesus and the author of John can easily use the first person singular pronoun I to refer to Himself, in spirit form, living and being inside of His disciples.
Your claim then is demonstrably false.
Who said it causes anyone to commit to a Trinitarian view? And it's not because we are describing the various modes of God's existence (something the Scripture never teaches, i.e. that God has "modes"), but because of the language and grammar itself. It is the very words of Jesus and His apostles that causes us to use plural pronouns, because they themselves used them.
Subjective dissimulation. How about you seriously take into consideration whether or not the person who is off is you and your aggressive attempts at smearing me with libelous accusations?
False. Isaiah 9:6 is not a basis of description causing anyone to a plurality of modes view on the Godhead.
Rather, it is an a priori devotion to a doctrinal position that causes you to view the Deity of God in terms of modes.
This is provable because Trinitarians think Isaiah 9:6 causes them to see a plurality of persons. Why? A priori devotion to a doctrinal position.
Both of which, are blind to the truth of Isaiah 9:6 and what is being said there by the prophet.
And oh, by the way...
I see you never interacted with John 17:5 and my comments on it. How come?
You jumped right into this nonsense about Jesus being forced to use plural pronouns, ignoring the fact that in John 17:5, Jesus doesn't use a single plural pronoun at all.
He uses the first person singular to refer to Himself, and then He uses the second person singular to refer to the Father and His "Self".
If you or anyone would like to address that FACT, and go from there, please be my guest.
________________________________________________
PS. Here is a good thread on Isaiah 9:6, if anyone is interested:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ghlight=Isaiah
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If Jesus is trying to explain how He would indwell us and the mode in which he would accomplish that(by the Spirit/Father), how would Jesus have explained that He would personally indwell us if He didn’t use plural language?
If the Father and Son are meant to imply two persons, why are singular verbs used in I Thessalonians 3:11 - “direct” and II Thessalonians 2:16-17 - “”loved”, “gave”, “encourage”, and “strengthen”?
Simplicity can’t be covered up or hidden behind wordy and lengthy hermeneutics. That is why I don’t respond to some of your posts. It isn’t necessary.
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04-23-2021, 04:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
If Jesus is trying to explain how He would indwell us and the mode in which he would accomplish that(by the Spirit/Father), how would Jesus have explained that He would personally indwell us if He didn’t use plural language?
If the Father and Son are meant to imply two persons, why are singular verbs used in I Thessalonians 3:11 - “direct” and II Thessalonians 2:16-17 - “”loved”, “gave”, “encourage”, and “strengthen”?
Simplicity can’t be covered up or hidden behind wordy and lengthy hermeneutics. That is why I don’t respond to some of your posts. It isn’t necessary.
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If I may.....23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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04-23-2021, 06:32 PM
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Not riding the train
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 48,541
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 God
If I may.....23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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It is very simple, the Comforter will dwell in us. He says God will send, the Father will send, and He will send. The Spirit of the living God will abide in us. He is my all in all. We are making something so simple to appear very difficult. We might want to consider that the Apostles weren’t having any trouble at all.
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04-23-2021, 10:38 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
Mike,
The situation in Luke 12 and the rich man and his private, internal cogitations is not at all the same as the situation we see between Jesus and the Father. You quoted the text at length and even emboldened some of the text as proof. Let me show you:
Notice what the man does as he thinks within himself: He asks Himself "What shall I do?
He then responds to His own personal musings:
Notice again the use of "I", the first person referent to Himself.
Then, as you show, he speaks to his own soul here:
Note the specificity of the Greek for "my soul":
τῇ ψυχῇ μου ( tē psychē mou)
Literally, it reads "the soul of me". Mou is found in the Genitive Case, meaning personal possession or source of origin.
See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/12-19.htm
In every instance you shared from Luke 12, the narrative never suggests that the man is in any way speaking to anyone other than himself.
He, like many of us humans, is referring to himself in 3rd person. But when we do such things, we are not actually presupposing that our self is actually another person.
But note what Jesus says in John 17:5,
Jesus says quite clearly that the Father has a "self" that is differentiated and wholly not the self of Jesus/the Son.
The Greek phrasing is as follows:
παρὰ σεαυτῷ ( para seautō)
Or literally, "with Yourself", noting that σεαυτῷ ( seautō) "Yourself" is a compound of two words, namely:
σέ ( se) meaning "you" and αὐτός ( autos), meaning "self".
See:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/17-5.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/4572.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/4571.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm
This means that as far as Jesus was concerned, the Father was an entirely different person, if you will, or entity and identity, with a "self" that was not at all the self of the Son, but was unique to the Father alone.
It is therefore a mistake to use the situation of Luke 12 and the rich man's internal monologue as descriptive of the nature of the relationship between, and the differentiation of of the persons of, the Father and the Son.
The issue then is not limiting God or His ability. The limitations are from the Scriptures themselves, and from what Jesus actually said with the language He Himself employed, for our understanding.
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How did God answer Christ's prayer? Especially in light of the following:
Isaiah 48:11-13 KJV
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it : for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. [13] Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
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04-24-2021, 06:54 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
It is very simple, the Comforter will dwell in us. He says God will send, the Father will send, and He will send. The Spirit of the living God will abide in us. He is my all in all. We are making something so simple to appear very difficult. We might want to consider that the Apostles weren’t having any trouble at all.
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Per the verse I posted, "we" and "our" represents two individual persons. One divine and one human, correct?
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04-24-2021, 07:34 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,437
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
“The Father was an entirely different “person”. Hmmmmm...
Oh, that is right. You did say you come from a Trinitarian point of view.
Where, oh, where is Brother Blume?
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I thought so!
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Jesus, Teach us How to war in the Spirit realm, rather than war in the carnal, physical realm. Teach us to be spiritually minded, rather than to be mindful of the carnal.
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04-24-2021, 07:40 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,437
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
“The Father was an entirely different “person”. Hmmmmm...
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Lol!
Yet, we (trinitarians and oneness) all believe in the same God.
Oneness believers believe that there is only one God whose name is Jesus.
Trinitarians believe they’re three distinct, divine (god like) persons that make up the god head. Be sure not to rock the boat and say thee separate gods, you must say three separate persons.
Let me know how that works for you.
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Jesus, Teach us How to war in the Spirit realm, rather than war in the carnal, physical realm. Teach us to be spiritually minded, rather than to be mindful of the carnal.
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04-24-2021, 07:42 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,437
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
It is very simple, the Comforter will dwell in us. He says God will send, the Father will send, and He will send. The Spirit of the living God will abide in us. He is my all in all. We are making something so simple to appear very difficult. We might want to consider that the Apostles weren’t having any trouble at all.
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I wish there was a like button!!!!
__________________
Jesus, Teach us How to war in the Spirit realm, rather than war in the carnal, physical realm. Teach us to be spiritually minded, rather than to be mindful of the carnal.
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04-24-2021, 03:03 PM
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Not riding the train
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 48,541
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 God
Per the verse I posted, "we" and "our" represents two individual persons. One divine and one human, correct?
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There is only 1 person - Jesus Christ - God manifest in the flesh. When you have seen me, you have seen the father.
He is our all in all - Isaiah 9:6. The Apostles understood this and didn’t parse words with “persons” or “modes”. The “we” and “our” simply shows that they are one and the same. “I come in my father’s name”, “the Father is in me and I in Him.”
I don’t know how more One He could become - body and spirit.
__________________
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