Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 01-16-2022, 04:57 AM
Nicodemus1968's Avatar
Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,339
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Behold the mystery……. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


Interesting wording distinction speaking of our bodies-

Perishable cannot inherit the imperishable.
HOWEVER, the perishable will be CLOTHED with the imperishable
And the mortal CLOTHED with immortality. (The mystery, we shall be changed)


So what exactly is he meaning, when he says the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable?

Is it simply saying that our perishable bodies cannot inherit an imperishable (spiritual) kingdom….there has to be be a change?
Absolutely!!!
__________________
""The Government of The United States is NOT, in ANY sense, founded on the CHRISTIAN religion". - Founding Father -John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 01-16-2022, 05:04 AM
Nicodemus1968's Avatar
Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,339
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Jesus has a physical body
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

But unlike an earthly body, He also has an imperishable body
1 Corinthians 15:50
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Compared to

Luke 24:39
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Was the body spiritual?
__________________
""The Government of The United States is NOT, in ANY sense, founded on the CHRISTIAN religion". - Founding Father -John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 01-16-2022, 05:17 AM
Nicodemus1968's Avatar
Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,339
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Jesus has a physical body
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

But unlike an earthly body, He also has an imperishable body
1 Corinthians 15:50
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
I’m sorry I just don’t understand how Jesus has a physical, natural body in a spiritual kingdom.
I understand the explanation given to from Paul, we have a earnest of our inheritance here on earth. Meaning, we have a natural body yet we live in a spiritual kingdom. Yet, when we die the fullness of our inheritance will be completed when we will become fully spiritual without the physical, natural elements.

Revelation 22:9
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


I wonder if we’ll be helping other believers as well….

Eye hath not seen, nor ears heard….
__________________
""The Government of The United States is NOT, in ANY sense, founded on the CHRISTIAN religion". - Founding Father -John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #404  
Old 01-16-2022, 06:18 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 25,208
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
I’m sorry I just don’t understand how Jesus has a physical, natural body in a spiritual kingdom.
The bolded is error. His body is not natural it is immortal and incorruptible.

Quote:
Yet, when we die the fullness of our inheritance will be completed when we will become fully spiritual without the physical, natural elements.
Not when we die, but when we are resurrected:

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


When does the change happen?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

When is that?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 01-16-2022, 07:52 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,667
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The glorified body has not yet been made manifest, so we do not yet know all the details of what the result of the change looks like, as it were. Jesus said this:

Luke 20:35-36 KJV
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Angels have bodies and often interact as men, yet they also are what we would call a higher more advanced species. We don't know the details of what angels may look like in their full glory, nor do we know exactly and completely what we will be like when we are changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Well said!



Material human body:
Luke 24:37-39 (NKJV) 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Paul wrote this. If Christ was the firstborn, it implies we will rise like Him:
Col 1:18 (NKJV) 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Paul said this. If he was the first to rise from the dead, then there are second, third, and many more that will rise like Him:
Acts 26:23 (NKJV) 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Same here, but from John:
1 John 3:2 (NKJV) 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
That glorified material human body came from the elements of the non-glorified body, otherwise, the tomb would not be empty:
Luke 24:2-3 (NKJV) 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
The future resurrection is of material human bodies from the elements of the old body:
Jhn 5:28-29 NKJV - 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Awaken from the dust, human bodies coming back to life from the elements of old.
Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV) And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
Our mortal bodies are given life according to this passage, not thrown away and replaced, but are changed from its elements:
Romans 8:11 (NKJV) 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
According to those passages, it is definitely a transformation, not a replacement. God is leaving empty tombs, and that communicates a message. It is human body, but glorified, sanctified, it is real life. It is not a spirit, or some sort of empty vessel. It is of the human kind.

Now, how can you reconcile the passage from Paul about spiritual bodies vs natural bodies with these other passages?

Paul letters are difficult, and were even to the original audience, including Peter himself:
2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You need to unearth Paul intention, so you can see his overall thought flow and what he is trying to say, and then look how Paul used terms in their context, which may not be the way a term is used in other part of the Bible. Sometimes translations make it more obscure than it needs to be as well.


Some phrases sound like contradiction:

For example:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (NKJV) 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was sent from God from heaven in the sense that he was commissioned from Him, but Jesus was also made out of a woman, so dust. However, Paul is comparing Adam made from dust to the Lord from heaven. By mentioning "dust" you get the impression he is comparing forming materials. If the comparison is taken literally, it seems like a contradiction, however, if you look at the context, and his purpose, then you get the point better, as you start realizing how Paul is using the terms and with what intention.

The same with this one:
1 Corinthians 15:50 (NKJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
That phrase, if taken out of the context, at face value, it is contradiction with the things that Jesus told his disciples when he appeared to them. However, you can find out by seeking his purpose, and what he is trying to address, and how he wants to steer the audience to a different thinking. You can see it this way: there are some implicit qualifications (clarification) that go with the terms and phrases he uses.


Some accused Paul of:
(NKJV) 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.
Some used his phrases taken out of context to get to that conclusion, and most likely intentionally, to ridicule him.

Paul was in many occasions more focus on steering the audience than trying to be accurate. With not being "accurate" I mean being truthful but not clarifying or balancing out those profound terms and reasoning he uses right on the letter being written, because of the issue at hand, and there is an assumption of some things being understood (it is a letter after all). Basically, highlighting only certain angles of the topic to make a point and steer people's thinking. That's why all the context (and the different kinds of them) is crucial to truly understand the point. By the way, we do that all the time in our speech, except in mathematics proofs .

Last edited by coksiw; 01-16-2022 at 08:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 01-16-2022, 08:44 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 25,208
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Material human body:
Luke 24:37-39 (NKJV) 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Paul wrote this. If Christ was the firstborn, it implies we will rise like Him:
Col 1:18 (NKJV) 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Paul said this. If he was the first to rise from the dead, then there are second, third, and many more that will rise like Him:
Acts 26:23 (NKJV) 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Same here, but from John:
1 John 3:2 (NKJV) 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
That glorified material human body came from the elements of the non-glorified body, otherwise, the tomb would not be empty:
Luke 24:2-3 (NKJV) 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
The future resurrection is of material human bodies from the elements of the old body:
Jhn 5:28-29 NKJV - 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Awaken from the dust, human bodies coming back to life from the elements of old.
Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV) And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
Our mortal bodies are given life according to this passage, not thrown away and replaced, but are changed from its elements:
Romans 8:11 (NKJV) 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
According to those passages, it is definitely a transformation, not a replacement. God is leaving empty tombs, and that communicates a message. It is human body, but glorified, sanctified, it is real life. It is not a spirit, or some sort of empty vessel. It is of the human kind.

Now, how can you reconcile the passage from Paul about spiritual bodies vs natural bodies with these other passages?

Paul letters are difficult, and were even to the original audience, including Peter himself:
2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You need to unearth Paul intention, so you can see his overall thought flow and what he is trying to say, and then look how Paul used terms in their context, which may not be the way a term is used in other part of the Bible. Sometimes translations make it more obscure than it needs to be as well.


Some phrases sound like contradiction:

For example:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (NKJV) 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was sent from God from heaven in the sense that he was commissioned from Him, but Jesus was also made out of a woman, so dust. However, Paul is comparing Adam made from dust to the Lord from heaven. By mentioning "dust" you get the impression he is comparing forming materials. If the comparison is taken literally, it seems like a contradiction, however, if you look at the context, and his purpose, then you get the point better, as you start realizing how Paul is using the terms and with what intention.

The same with this one:
1 Corinthians 15:50 (NKJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
That phrase, if taken out of the context, at face value, it is contradiction with the things that Jesus told his disciples when he appeared to them. However, you can find out by seeking his purpose, and what he is trying to address, and how he wants to steer the audience to a different thinking. You can see it this way: there are some implicit qualifications (clarification) that go with the terms and phrases he uses.


Some accused Paul of:
(NKJV) 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.
Some used his phrases taken out of context to get to that conclusion, and most likely intentionally, to ridicule him.

Paul was in many occasions more focus on steering the audience than trying to be accurate. With not being "accurate" I mean being truthful but not clarifying or balancing out those profound terms and reasoning he uses right on the letter being written, because of the issue at hand, and there is an assumption of some things being understood (it is a letter after all). Basically, highlighting only certain angles of the topic to make a point and steer people's thinking. That's why all the context (and the different kinds of them) is crucial to truly understand the point. By the way, we do that all the time in our speech, except in mathematics proofs .
I think you have missed what I have been saying in this thread, I believe you think I am saying one thing when that is not what I am saying. The body is transformed from a natural, mortal, corruptible body to a spiritual, immortal, incorruptible body. There is no body that will be left in the ground when a person is resurrected, because it has been raised. Spiritual does not necessarily mean non-material.

As for Paul not being accurate, I would say the opposite. He is extremely accurate. I have no idea why anyone would think Paul was inaccurate, unless they are wanting to believe something other than what he taught without seeming to reject his apostleship altogether.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 01-16-2022, 08:54 AM
1 God 1 God is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Paul is saying he’s sinning?
Yes. He said sin is present within himself...never left. He was saying his spirit was right with God but his flesh nature was not. This is why this flesh has to die or be shed at the rapture. It cannot obtain eternal life. This is why we must get a new body. Our spirit waits for a new body upon death until the first resurrection. The rest that have not been saved must wait for their new bodies, per Daniel, until the end.
Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 01-16-2022, 09:02 AM
1 God 1 God is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
Not only that, He considers himself chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15


AM chief, present tense.



Talk about level ground at the cross…


Yet then says, shall we continue in sin? God forbid.


Sounds like he’s full of humility to me, not so much full of sin.
Yes, also, Paul recognized that sin was still present in him and practiced self, fleshly abstinence and daily "self crucifixion" of his contrary nature. The prescribed method of his success was praying/walking in the Spirit, which "crucifies the flesh" by default.
Reply With Quote
  #409  
Old 01-16-2022, 09:06 AM
Nicodemus1968's Avatar
Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Unites States
Posts: 2,339
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
Yes. He said sin is present within himself...never left. He was saying his spirit was right with God but his flesh nature was not. This is why this flesh has to die or be shed at the rapture. It cannot obtain eternal life. This is why we must get a new body. Our spirit waits for a new body upon death until the first resurrection. The rest that have not been saved must wait for their new bodies, per Daniel, until the end.
Do you also believe there are many mansions in heaven along streets of gold, still waters to fish in, and a sun that shines so bright yet never too hot, in a heavenly city that never sees the moon nor night?
__________________
""The Government of The United States is NOT, in ANY sense, founded on the CHRISTIAN religion". - Founding Father -John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #410  
Old 01-16-2022, 09:09 AM
1 God 1 God is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Do you also believe there are many mansions in heaven along streets of gold, still waters to fish in, and a sun that shines so bright yet never too hot, in a heavenly city that never sees the moon nor night?
No sun or fish, but mansions, gold streets. Jesus Christ will be the light of the city and the new heaven. Jesus is light now. God shines this heavenly light through him. Paul saw it and it blinded him per Acts 9.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you view Dan A? RevDWW Fellowship Hall 116 09-10-2008 07:41 PM
Popular View of Hell Unknown in the OT crakjak Deep Waters 46 09-09-2008 11:16 PM
Our view of ourselves. Steve Epley Fellowship Hall 5 03-21-2007 11:19 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by BroGary
- by Barb
- by aegsm76

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.