Sabbath and bible feasts

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The voice of modern religion: "Make sure you don't try to actually follow the Bible too closely. You only need to call yourself a Christian and meet our denominational standards for membership and you'll make heaven your home. Trying to actually live by God's Word is bad, God will send you to hell for that."

False narrative.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

False narrative.

Nuh uh!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So I take it then you don't do the Lord's Supper, either?

Nobody here is remotely interested in looking or acting Jewish. Rabbinical shawls aren't Biblical.

And neither is Baal'sMass.

Apples and oranges. The Lord's Supper is not an established feast day. We take it as we care to. "As oft as you do it..." Furthermore, nobody is promoting Ba'al worship. Acting out the Feasts of Israel is fine for educational purposes. But many Christians have taken this kind of thing too far and have become guilty of the very thing the Galatians were.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nuh uh!

Christians are not commanded to follow the Feasts of Israel or the Jewish calendar.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Apples and oranges. The Lord's Supper is not an established feast day. We take it as we care to. "As oft as you do it..." Furthermore, nobody is promoting Ba'al worship. Acting out the Feasts of Israel is fine for educational purposes. But many Christians have taken this kind of thing too far and have become guilty of the very thing the Galatians were.

The Lord's Supper is a memorial of a past event. Your reasoning was "Christ fulfilled the feasts therefore we are not commanded to keep them." Your reasoning was that since the feasts looked BACK to historical events in the life and ministry of Christ, there is therefore no need to observe them. The exact same logic would demand a non observance of the Lord's Supper.

"As oft as you do it" does not mean "we take as we care to". It means "each time you do it". It doesn't say anything about HOW often that is or WHEN that is, only that certain things be done when it takes place.

Nobody is claiming to promote Baal worship. However, promoting Baal worship doesn't require a verbal declaration "Hey let's worship Baal". Anymore than promoting graven images requires a verbal declaration "Hey let's worship graven images." Idolatry can be in the form of "Hey let's genuflect before the statue of Jesus and light some incense". A lot of false religion masquerades as "Christianity". Participating in the rites and holy days of Baal worship constitutes Baal worship, even if he is called "the Lord". After all, "baal" and "adonai" can both mean "lord".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Christians are not commanded to follow the Feasts of Israel or the Jewish calendar.

I don't follow the Jewish calendar.

Christians are commanded to obey God, to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, to use the Scriptures for doctrine and instruction in righteousness.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2Ti 3:16-17)

I wonder what "Scripture" Paul was referring to? It certainly wasn't a Gideon New Testament-only "bible".

Furthermore, Paul said:

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
(1Co 5:6-8)

And before you try to claim he was only saying "let's all be sincere and without malice etc" and was in no wise talking abut actually keeping the Passover feast itself in a new covenant context, look closely at his words: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened." AS YE ARE UNLEAVENED.

They were at that time "unleavened". You may say "they were spiritually unleavened, not literally unleavened." Yet Paul instructs them to de-leaven themselves spiritually as a result of already being unleavened. Therefore, the two kinds of "unleavened" must necessarily refer to two different things. One is spiritual, and that is what Paul was commanding them to do. Therefore they still had spiritual leaven in their midst. So them already being "unleavened" cannot refer to the spiritual unleavening that he was commanding them to perform. They were already unleavened in one sense, and therefore because of that they needed to be unleavened in the spiritual sense. Which necessarily means they were already unleavened in the literal sense. Which is why he said let us keep the feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity etc. They were already keeping the feast literally (in a new covenant context), but needed to apply the lesson from the feast to their corporate spiritual condition.

This is a solid proof early first century Christians (both Judean and Greek) were keeping the feast of Passover in a literal sense as an actual observance. In fact, if they weren't, as the anti-feast keeping folks would like to imagine, then there is ZERO explanation for the continued observance of Passover by Christians for the past 2000 years. There was a huge debate in the 3-4th centuries concerning the DATE for proper Passover observance (it's called the Quartodeciman Controversy) which resulted in the modern practice of dating Passover (aka "Easter"), but there was NEVER a debate concerning whether or not Christians should keep Passover.

[Esaias]

For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:18-24)

Here is a prophecy for the "new heavens and the new earth". After asserting the gentiles shall be gathered to behold God's glory, and the establishment of the new priesthood (after the order of Melchizedec), it is plainly asserted that mankind will be following God's calendar - "from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another" - for the express purpose of worship.

Might as well get used to it, cause that what is going to be going on through eternity. That is part and parcel of the worship of God. If a person cannot stomach that now, in this life, what in the world makes them think they will be participating in it in the next? Why, that would literally be HELL for them... participating in worship they disdain...

A lot of people are going to discover they really don't like God, that He and they just aren't on the same page and never really were. They will hear the words "I never knew you". It will dawn on them they never actually knew Him either. His ways were abhorrent to them. They thought He would be just like them. They thought the gospel was about finding the God that looked like them and liked the things they liked. They will discover things are not quite like that. There will be much gnashing of teeth. They will discover the consuming fire of God's glory is for them the fires of the second death.

So sad.

[Esaias]

But getting back to the subject...

The Feasts or Appointed Times of the Lord have four levels of signification. The first of course is the historical. Passover was a commemoration of the Exodus from Egypt, for example. The second is Christological. The Passover looked forward to the cross as Christ became soteriological Passover Lamb accomplishing our deliverance, for example. The third is experiential. We must each of us have a personal Passover or Calvary experience, whereby not only do we 'eat' the Passover (the cross applied to our lives) but we must also take up our own cross and 'die to self' on our personal, God-ordained Golgotha, ie we identify with Christ in his death, for example. And the fourth is eschatological. Paul says the feasts are 'shadows of things coming', ie still future from when he wrote those words. (I understand this last point will be debatable by my preterist friends, but that's not what this thread is about, so bear with me a moment.)

Now, we know that Christ died on Passover. As such, he fulfilled the Passover. Yet, in Hebrews we read that Christ also fulfills the Atonement. Now, the Day of Atonement was in the fall, and did not take place during Passover. For years I had wondered 'Why, if Christ fulfills the Day of Atonement, did he not die on the day of Atonement?'

First of all, he had to die on a particular day, so it couldn't be both. It would have to be one or the other.

Second, the Day of Atonement was meant to secure the ongoing atonement of the nation. But without Passover there would be no nation to be atoned for. So, the Day of Atonement depends on the Passover.

Third, the Day of Atonement occurs in the seventh month. The Passover occurs in the first month. To determine the seventh month, one has to know when the first month is. Thus, again, Atonement depends on Passover.

Fourth, the Passover is merely part of a larger Feast, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast is a seven day feast that actually spans eight days. The first day is the Passover day itself, when the lamb is killed and roasted. That night, the Lamb is eaten. This would be the 'first day of unleavened bread' properly speaking. This day was a Sabbath, and the day after that would be the presentation and waving of the 'omer' or 'sheaf of the firstfruits'. So the third day, technically speaking, of the whole festal period is the 'omer' day. Then, the last day, or seventh day of the week of Unleavened Bread, is also a Sabbath.

What we see here is a pattern: The first, the third, and the seventh. The first is when the Lamb is slain. The third is the presentation of the representative firstfruit. The seventh is the culmination or completion.

The Feasts themselves follow a similar pattern of first, third, and seventh. The first month is Passover/Unleavened Bread, the third month is Pentecost or feast of firstfruits, and the seventh month is Trumpets (announcing the beginning of the seventh month), Atonement, and Tabernacles (another 8 day feast).

So then, within the first Feast period of Passover/Unleavened Bread, there is contained in a seed form the entire cycle of yearly Feasts. Or to put it another way, the Passover/Unleavened Bread cycle is a typological representation or template for the entire Feast calendar for the whole year.

So, in conclusion, the Day of Atonement is contained in seed form within the Passover cycle, and is dependent upon the Passover for it's existence and timing. Thus, when Christ died at Passover, he fulfilled in typological form the entire yearly Feast cycle.

This corresponds not merely to the day he died, but to the entire week.

On Passover he died. He was in the tomb during the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. He rose the third day as the 'omer' of the resurrection, the proto-typical firstfruit signalling the Pentecost harvest of 'firstfruits' would be acceptable. Likewise, his resurrection is a type of the new life we receive by the gift of the Spirit, which was poured out on the feast of firstfruits aka Pentecost. He appeared to his disciples several times over the next week much to their amazement, signifying a 'Tabernacles' experience much as God tabernacled with Israel in the wilderness (which is what Tabernacles' historical purpose was to commemorate).

So, in a sense, the Passover week was a Christological fulfillment of the whole yearly Feast cycle. And thus, he was able to fulfill the Atonement without having to actually die on the actual Day of Atonement.

Note1: I realise some hold to either a Wednesday crucifixion or a Thursday crucifixion. This thread is not designed to debate that issue (we can do that in another thread if anyone wants?) but merely to point out how Atonement is satisfied even though his death was not on the Day of Atonement.

Note2: During the Exodus event, Israel wound up at Marah on or right about what would be the seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Then they arrived at Sinai shortly before the day of what would be Pentecost. Pentecost is fifty days from Passover (technically from the omer day). Jesus stayed with the apostles for forty days after his resurrection, leaving them ten days to wait in preparation and prayer until Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. The time he spent with them he spoke to them about the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Israel's history in those first fifty days between the Exodus and Sinai give interesting lessons concerning the kingdom of God: The tree making the bitter waters sweet, the twelve wells and seventy palm trees of Elim, the giving of manna in the wilderness of Sin, the striking of the Rock at Rephidim, the coming of Amalek, the appointment of lesser judges (governmental structure) after the arrival of Jethro, and the arrival at Sinai and preparations to receive the Law and Covenant.

Note3: Jesus was with his disciples forty days after his Passover. Israel wandered in Sinai for forty years after their Passover.

Note4: It is likely that when Jesus was baptised by John, he fulfilled much of the typology of the Day of Atonement. This by the way leads into the question of whether Jesus died in the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel, or at the end of the seventieth week. I am starting to see that Jesus did not die in the midst of the seventieth week, but that he was baptised in the midst of the seventieth week, thus (from God's perspective) ending all sacrifice and offering for sin, then completing the seventieth week with his death. I admit this is something I am not certain about, and may be a dead end rabbit trail, but I am currently looking into this to see where it goes.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

But many Christians ... have become guilty of the very thing the Galatians were.

What were they guilty of?

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(Gal 4:8-10)

1. They were returning to pagan worship rites.

2. They were observing a non biblical, pagan holy day calendar.

3. While still claiming to be Christians.

Yep, you are right. MANY Christians - in fact MOST Christians - are guilty of the same thing the Galatians were guilty of.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What were they guilty of?

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(Gal 4:8-10)

1. They were returning to pagan worship rites.

2. They were observing a non biblical, pagan holy day calendar.

3. While still claiming to be Christians.

Yep, you are right. MANY Christians - in fact MOST Christians - are guilty of the same thing the Galatians were guilty of.

Galatians were returning to pagan worship? Is that the context of Paul's warning to them? NO!!