DNC National Convention

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think that might help to some degree. However, that will not drive down the rising costs of health care, which drives up premiums.

Government involvement creates false bubbles. Housing, healthcare, education. All bubbles burst eventually.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You want to know why those premiums are really going up? It is simple economics. It's not so much "government" either.

You see, we had nearly 50 million uninsured Americans. When they became sick or injured, they'd go to the ER. They'd be admitted to the hospital and receive various procedures and treatments necessary. Many had waited so long the treatments and procedures they needed are now rather advanced, invasive, and expensive. Being uninsured, they couldn't pay the medical bill or they are slow payers. Record numbers just declare bankruptcy. This caused providers to lose money! To cover this loss and stay in business with cutting edge medical technologies, providers had to increase the cost of care. When the cost of care would increase due to the uninsured, insurance companies had to increase the premiums of the insured to cover the now increased costs of care. When premiums rose, more people opted out of health insurance because they couldn't afford it. Then the cycle would repeat itself.... only now there are MORE uninsured brining loss to providers.

You see, health care can't be "free market" unless it can deny services. For example, imagine a car dealership run like the health care system. You show up at the auto-ER and they give you a car and bill you. And now you have this car, but you can't pay the bill. So.... you don't pay it, or you are a slow payer. Now, imagine you have millions of people like you doing this. What will happen to the dealership? Will it not go out of business? Of course it would. So, to stay in business, they cover the loss by increasing the price of automobiles. Well, what happens then? Fewer can afford them outright, so, more people drop by the auto-ER. Now the price is in a continual process of increase based on incurred loss. Prices are now set to skyrocket until automobiles are so expensive only the ultra wealthy can afford them.

However, many nations have discovered that IF you can insure that providers are indeed paid for services.... the price of said services remains relatively stable. The only way to do this is to insure that EVERYONE pays into the system, it is available to all, after all. The least expensive way to do this side steps the administration and executive costs.... taxation. So, the government has everyone pay into the system that is available to all (no free rides); all to ensure that providers are paid and the price stays stable. With stable prices brings stable premiums for elective procedures. That also means that it is easier to directly negotiate the cost of essential care. This helps keep the costs of most routine procedures and services to a bare minimum.

If you want true FREE MARKET health care... you have to be able to turn away those who are not insured or cannot pay in cold hard cash. Because that is exactly what every other free market business (such as a car dealership) would do.

You left out the part where you then produce doctors who make barely more than a McDonalds manager. You let the Gov start taxing and mandating that all people pay so that you can guarantee healthcare providers get paid, the next step is that you then have to make sure that the providers only make so much so that they can be covered by the amount of taxes you steal from the populace. So if you tax all the people, take out the cost of any overhead, an d what is left is all you have to pay the providers. If that ends up meaning you can only pay a doctor $40,000 a year...then "woohoo" that Doctor should celebrate right?

Yes, you want men and women to go to college for an additional 8-12 years to earn a degree that costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they can make...less than a good used car salesman? Oh yeah...that will work out great.

Oh and of course, you also have the fact that letting the Gov regulate will further kill patient care and relationship with the doctor. They will indeed, as they already do in most cases, mandate that these doctors shuffle patients through their office as fast as a Taco Bell worker can toss that taco down the line. No time to talk. No time to really discuss things. Just in and out. Gotta keep moving so we can "treat" the next patient. You know, because if they meet the quota, then the Gov overseeing the healthcare may pay you even less Doctor.

I don't understand how anyone can look at Government involvement in anything and think, "Gee these people do such great work. Let's just let them control even more of our lives".

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

You left out the part where you then produce doctors who make barely more than a McDonalds manager. You let the Gov start taxing and mandating that all people pay so that you can guarantee healthcare providers get paid, the next step is that you then have to make sure that the providers only make so much so that they can be covered by the amount of taxes you steal from the populace. So if you tax all the people, take out the cost of any overhead, an d what is left is all you have to pay the providers. If that ends up meaning you can only pay a doctor $40,000 a year...then "woohoo" that Doctor should celebrate right?

Yes, you want men and women to go to college for an additional 8-12 years to earn a degree that costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they can make...less than a good used car salesman? Oh yeah...that will work out great.

Oh and of course, you also have the fact that letting the Gov regulate will further kill patient care and relationship with the doctor. They will indeed, as they already do in most cases, mandate that these doctors shuffle patients through their office as fast as a Taco Bell worker can toss that taco down the line. No time to talk. No time to really discuss things. Just in and out. Gotta keep moving so we can "treat" the next patient. You know, because if they meet the quota, then the Gov overseeing the healthcare may pay you even less Doctor.

I don't understand how anyone can look at Government involvement in anything and think, "Gee these people do such great work. Let's just let them control even more of our lives".

Hey, it all works out well on Star Trek.

[jfrog]

And capitalism in health care leads to trying to see more patients faster and trying to milk each patient and insurance company for as much money as possible.

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

You left out the part where you then produce doctors who make barely more than a McDonalds manager. You let the Gov start taxing and mandating that all people pay so that you can guarantee healthcare providers get paid, the next step is that you then have to make sure that the providers only make so much so that they can be covered by the amount of taxes you steal from the populace. So if you tax all the people, take out the cost of any overhead, an d what is left is all you have to pay the providers. If that ends up meaning you can only pay a doctor $40,000 a year...then "woohoo" that Doctor should celebrate right?

Yes, you want men and women to go to college for an additional 8-12 years to earn a degree that costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they can make...less than a good used car salesman? Oh yeah...that will work out great.

Oh and of course, you also have the fact that letting the Gov regulate will further kill patient care and relationship with the doctor. They will indeed, as they already do in most cases, mandate that these doctors shuffle patients through their office as fast as a Taco Bell worker can toss that taco down the line. No time to talk. No time to really discuss things. Just in and out. Gotta keep moving so we can "treat" the next patient. You know, because if they meet the quota, then the Gov overseeing the healthcare may pay you even less Doctor.

I don't understand how anyone can look at Government involvement in anything and think, "Gee these people do such great work. Let's just let them control even more of our lives".

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

And capitalism in health care leads to trying to see more patients faster and trying to milk each patient and insurance company for as much money as possible.

Well, when you are spending thousands of dollars a year on liability insurance, what can one expect?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Well, when you are spending thousands of dollars a year on liability insurance, what can one expect?

They should be liable for the damages caused by their actions. If it makes sense to purchase insurance to cover I. Those situation then so be it

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

They should be liable for the damages caused by their actions. If it makes sense to purchase insurance to cover I. Those situation then so be it

I agree. But frivolous lawsuits pushed by ambulance chasing attorneys creates the need for even more liability insurance and that, like any business expense, is passed on to us.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I agree. But frivolous lawsuits pushed by ambulance chasing attorneys creates the need for even more liability insurance and that, like any business expense, is passed on to us.

I agree there. But it's hard to say what is frivolous and what is not before the litigation starts...

Likewise I can't think of a way of stopping frivolous litigation that won't also punish fair litigation

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by jfrog

And capitalism in health care leads to trying to see more patients faster and trying to milk each patient and insurance company for as much money as possible.

We haven't had a purely capitalistic health care system for many, many decades. Government interference has caused most of these issues you reference.

Mind you, any time you have a large corporation (whether it be a computer store, or a health care provider), you have the potential of people just doing what's necessary to earn their paycheck, then go home (and yet, people want bigger and more government, when the same - and even worse - applies there). That's why I prefer smaller stores and services, when I need them.

If we had a truly capitalistic health care system, many of these issues would self resolve. If a large provider wasn't meeting the needs of their customers (patients), then they'd go somewhere else that would. While people can do that now, there's so much regulation and red tape involved, and so much heavy-handed government interference, that the smaller clinics just have difficulty keeping up with the mandates upon them, much less covering the expense of running the business.

Frankly, I'd much rather see us eliminate health insurance for regular checkups, and go back to a pay-as-you-go system. Over time, that would decrease the costs, and bring them more in line with what they should be. Unfortunately, people have become so accustomed to having these things paid for by insurance, it would take many years to wean them off of it, if it could even be done at all.

Insurance should be for catastrophic, unforeseen circumstances only. When the first employer mandate was issued for health insurance, was the day we lost control of our health care system.

[jfrog]

What would a purely capitalistic health care system look like?

1. People without means to pay for their procedures would not be seen. It's not capitalistic to lose money.

2. Doctors would be more about meeting their patients immediate needs and desires instead of long term. Pain pills instead of pain management. Quick fix drugs instead of lifestyle change advice. Why? Because such practices will make them more money.

3. They would sacrifice quality healthcare for deals with drug companies to promote their drugs.

Basically they would be on the edge of ethical all in the pursuit of making the most money possible.

Kind of like today except patients wouldn't have to be seen if they couldn't afford the procedure