The "Inclusion" Doctrine

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Does he say it is a problem but not sin, or that it is normal and must be celebrated?

Either one is contrary to the Word of God, so it's a distinction without a difference.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Either one is contrary to the Word of God, so it's a distinction without a difference.

I have heard of some Christians believing that homosexuality is the judgment of God in the sense that it is not a sin but a mental disease. Then, there is the other group that without shame affirm homosexuality. The former is a mis-interpretation, the later is perversion.

I am not trying to defend him, just trying to understand what he believes as an universalist. What I can tell from his quote I posted earlier is that it is not clear to me what it is his position regarding homosexuality.

[n david]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I wonder what he means with:

First, there's a lot of closet homosexuals in the black church. Pastors, Bishops, singers, and musicians it's very prevalent.

IMO, he's advocating for acceptance/tolerance. He specifically says to confront, not combat, the issue and then says if all the gays left they wouldn't have a church.

Remember that "Day Without a Mexican" political fail from years ago? All the Mexicans were supposed to not show up for work and show how terrible it would be without them here in the US.

Pearson calling for a "Day Without a Homosexual" event in church.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by n david

First, there's a lot of closet homosexuals in the black church. Pastors, Bishops, singers, and musicians it's very prevalent.

IMO, he's advocating for acceptance/tolerance. He specifically says to confront, not combat, the issue and then says if all the gays left they wouldn't have a church.

Remember that "Day Without a Mexican" political fail from years ago? All the Mexicans were supposed to not show up for work and show how terrible it would be without them here in the US.

Pearson calling for a "Day Without a Homosexual" event in church.

Yeah, it makes sense. If he were those that believed in it as a simple mental disease he would be taking about it as a minority problem and as a call to compassion on them (as mentally ill people), and help with their repentance so the healing can come.

The way he talks about it points more towards affirmative/celebration approach, which is pure perversion.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Yeah, it makes sense. If he were those that believed in it as a simple mental disease he would be taking about it as a minority problem and as a call to compassion on them (as mentally ill people), and help with their repentance so the healing can come.

The way he talks about it points more towards affirmative/celebration approach, which is pure perversion.

It just seems to me that the bar is constantly lowered for homosexuals. For some reason we don’t lower the bar for alcoholics to the same extent that we do for homosexuals. We do in fact raise the bar from where the scripture sets it. We make it sinful to even drink, which the Bible doesn’t do. Do we believe that alcoholism is something we are born with? Even if we never take a drink?

What about heterosexuals? Fornication is sin for them too. We don’t excuse their sin. I guess the idea is that if you lower the bar enough, everyone can get over it. (universalism?) The problem is that it’s really not our place to set the bar. It’s not our place to lower it or raise it. And we really can’t do either. We just pretend to.

Being tempted is not a sin, otherwise Jesus wasn’t without sin because He was tempted in all ways that we are. Homosexuality is an abomination. If we decide it isn’t, that’s just a reflection on us and our confusion. It doesn’t change God. But sometimes we are arrogant enough to believe it does.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It just seems to me that the bar is constantly lowered for homosexuals. For some reason we don’t lower the bar for alcoholics to the same extent that we do for homosexuals. We do in fact raise the bar from where the scripture sets it. We make it sinful to even drink, which the Bible doesn’t do. Do we believe that alcoholism is something we are born with? Even if we never take a drink?

What about heterosexuals? Fornication is sin for them too. We don’t excuse their sin. I guess the idea is that if you lower the bar enough, everyone can get over it. (universalism?) The problem is that it’s really not our place to set the bar. It’s not our place to lower it or raise it. And we really can’t do either. We just pretend to.

Being tempted is not a sin, otherwise Jesus wasn’t without sin because He was tempted in all ways that we are. Homosexuality is an abomination. If we decide it isn’t, that’s just a reflection on us and our confusion. It doesn’t change God. But sometimes we are arrogant enough to believe it does.

Amen. It is social pressure. It is easy to call it sin when everyone sees it as bad, like the example of alcoholism.

[coksiw]

Tithemeiser,

This is the interpretation I have seen before:

Romans 1:24
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

So, some people understand the “gave” here as saying God gave them to be homosexuals, like a mental illness, as a judgement.

What is really happening here is related with this:
Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

The Spirit of God strives with men even if they don’t worship Him, to move them to repentance but also to contain evil in a community to some extent by persuasion. So the judgment of God mentioned in Romans is not the giving of homosexuality, but abandonment, or removal of all restrain to their lusts.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Tithemeiser,

This is the interpretation I have seen before:

Romans 1:24
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

So, some people understand the “gave” here as saying God gave them to be homosexuals, like a mental illness, as a judgement.

What is really happening here is related with this:
Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

The Spirit of God strives with men even if they don’t worship Him, to move them to repentance but also to contain evil in a community to some extent by persuasion. So the judgment of God mentioned in Romans is not the giving of homosexuality, but abandonment, or removal of all restrain to their lusts.

Actually I do believe that some people, even ethnicities of people are more susceptible to certain weaknesses. For example, I understand Native Americans have a weakness where alcohol is concerned. My grandmother recited an incident that happened when she was a child. She described an “Indian” that was such an alpha male that he intimidated the locals in her small town. He would go to the bar and they would serve him liquor, in spite of the fact that it was illegal to serve alcohol to an Indian!? I was intrigued. That law certainly wouldn’t be politically correct today.

So life isn’t fair. Some of us are tempted by different things and in different ways. I believe that. But we are called by one God to strive for perfection. Our paths won’t be the same but our ultimate destination is. I’ve often looked at alcoholism and thought “I wish alcohol was my weakness, because I could handle that much easier than say, being tempted by women”. But I don’t have a weakness for alcohol and I understand that others do. So we don’t pick our battles, we can only pray for strength to overcome our temptations.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by n david

Netflix made a movie about him, “Come Sunday.”

I watched that on Netflix. Not entirely sure how accurate it was, but it was an interesting look.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Actually I do believe that some people, even ethnicities of people are more susceptible to certain weaknesses. For example, I understand Native Americans have a weakness where alcohol is concerned. My grandmother recited an incident that happened when she was a child. She described an “Indian” that was such an alpha male that he intimidated the locals in her small town. He would go to the bar and they would serve him liquor, in spite of the fact that it was illegal to serve alcohol to an Indian!? I was intrigued. That law certainly wouldn’t be politically correct today.

So life isn’t fair. Some of us are tempted by different things and in different ways. I believe that. But we are called by one God to strive for perfection. Our paths won’t be the same but our ultimate destination is. I’ve often looked at alcoholism and thought “I wish alcohol was my weakness, because I could handle that much easier than say, being tempted by women”. But I don’t have a weakness for alcohol and I understand that others do. So we don’t pick our battles, we can only pray for strength to overcome our temptations.

I very much agree.