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  #221  
Old 07-27-2022, 07:48 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Just a reminder to Brother Blume and Good Samaritan. There is a question in this post that I don’t believe either of you answered.

Once again,

Did Paul teach the elders in plain language to work with their hands and support the weak in the church?
He clearly said he did that because the Corinthians were so carnal that they would otherwise complain about it. So he said he abrogated that right of his. Read the context.

In verses 1-11 he said it was his right to receive income. In verse 12 he said BUT....

1 Corinthians 9:12
(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

He said that they would have hindered the gospel and complained about him seeking money alone, just like this thread seems to be repeating by those who feel a minister should not live of the gospel as Paul clearly taught.

It is not about apostles only. Look at the context:

1 Corinthians 9:14
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


They who preach the gospel.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

Last edited by mfblume; 07-27-2022 at 07:52 PM.
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  #222  
Old 07-27-2022, 08:36 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
He clearly said he did that because the Corinthians were so carnal that they would otherwise complain about it. So he said he abrogated that right of his. Read the context.

In verses 1-11 he said it was his right to receive income. In verse 12 he said BUT....

1 Corinthians 9:12
(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

He said that they would have hindered the gospel and complained about him seeking money alone, just like this thread seems to be repeating by those who feel a minister should not live of the gospel as Paul clearly taught.

It is not about apostles only. Look at the context:

1 Corinthians 9:14
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


They who preach the gospel.
You are in the wrong book of the Bible. I am talking about the book of Acts in the twentieth chapter.

When Paul was trying to get to Jerusalem, and it had been prophesied that he would be arrested when he got there. He sent for the elders of the church at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus. He knew he would never see them again and this is what he told them.

17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.


[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.



[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,
[38] Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

Paul clearly is saying to the elders of the church that we showed you how we worked with our own hands to support the church. He said he supported not only the weak in the church, but himself and they that were with him.

Am I not rrrrrrright? Am I in the proper context?

Yes or no?

He did say that there would be wolves entering the flock later . . .
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  #223  
Old 07-27-2022, 11:44 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
He clearly said he did that because the Corinthians were so carnal that they would otherwise complain about it. So he said he abrogated that right of his. Read the context.
Brother,
Paul was not accusing them of being carnal. Of course they were carnal! You are carnal. And believe it or not, I am carnal. But Paul wasnít saying they were carnal, he was saying that HE was carnal. He needed food and drink, which are carnal needs. Pretty much opposite of accusing them of being carnal, he was admitting that he and Barnabus were carnal (they required food and drink).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
In verses 1-11 he said it was his right to receive income. In verse 12 he said BUT....
I use the KJV. Iím not sure which version you use but the KJV doesnít mention income. Itís talking food and drink. Please advise or just copy and paste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
1 Corinthians 9:12
(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Absolutely! Paul was concerned that he would hinder the gospel, so he didnít require them to feed him.

Brother Blume, are you at all concerned that you may be hindering the gospel by accepting tithes? Paul was.

And Paul was an apostle remember. Even the IRS recognizes that living out of town (as an apostle would necessarily do) is expensive. Have you ever studied Paulís missionary journeys? That brother was traveling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
He said that they would have hindered the gospel and complained about him seeking money alone, just like this thread seems to be repeating by those who feel a minister should not live of the gospel as Paul clearly taught.
Once again, I donít see one mention of money in this passage. Is it possible that you see money when the Bible clearly says food and drink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It is not about apostles only. Look at the context:

1 Corinthians 9:14
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
Am I not an apostle? Read the first verse. Itís about apostles. The passage in Acts clearly is about elders which includes pastors.

They who preach the gospel.[/QUOTE]

This thread is about tithes. But allow me to ask a question. Is Brother Coksiw wrong for preaching the gospel free of charge?

Thatís what Paul was doing.
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  #224  
Old 07-28-2022, 12:06 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
He clearly said he did that because the Corinthians were so carnal that they would otherwise complain about it. So he said he abrogated that right of his. Read the context.

In verses 1-11 he said it was his right to receive income. In verse 12 he said BUT....

1 Corinthians 9:12
(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

He said that they would have hindered the gospel and complained about him seeking money alone, just like this thread seems to be repeating by those who feel a minister should not live of the gospel as Paul clearly taught.

It is not about apostles only. Look at the context:

1 Corinthians 9:14
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


They who preach the gospel.
The context. Let's see what group is comparing himself with:

1Co 9:1, 5, 12 KJV - (1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? ... (5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? ... (12) If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Clear?

Also, what right is he talking about?

Jesus taught that the people of the city you are going into to start congregations should voluntarily support you while you are there evangelizing: Luk 9:2-4, Luk 10:3-9, (also in Matt, and Mar).

Notice this interesting part:
Luk 10:7 NKJV - (7) "And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.

That was a lesson for them to show them how to do it at that time. They would go, the people of the city responding to the message should financially help them, but it was "as they give". The interesting thing was that their first experience doing so was in the cities of Israel, so they definitely couldn't go around saying "I'm your new levites, gives all your tithes to me" LOL.

Anyways,
That's what apostles did:

Peter staying with Simon tanner while ministrying in Joppa: Act 9:43
Paul stayed with Lydia, a new believer, while he preached in the area: Act 16:14-15

Now, this is what happened in Corinth:
Paul stayed with Aquila and Priscilla, while he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and worked as a tentmaker: Acts 18:1-4
Then, he moved to Justus's house, who lived beside the synagogue, who was a new believer, for one year and six months while he taught: Act 18:6-11.

But apparently, according to 1 Corinthians, he didn't stop working as a tentmaker, while he could have.

Does everything make sense now in Context? That's Paul's point in 1 Corinthians. We don't have to put into the text more meaning extrapolating it into "bishops".



Now, many Pastors that are sent to a town, are in reality evangelist, trying to start a church. It is a lot of work at the beginning. I see nothing wrong with locals and also other churches supporting him to go as full time as they can.

Also, I see no problem with supporting pastors that are trying to go full time as Bible teachers because there is a huge demand for ministry training.

In general, I see no problem with supporting certain individuals full time for ministry as long as what they are doing has to do with missionary work locally, or training many others for missionary work; as long as it is from voluntary offering, without coercion.

If the pastor is just being a "catholic priest", it is like, meh, no point.

But, there is also the principle of blessing those that teach you, which does not need to be a salary, but you can bless them in many ways.
Gal 6:6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

Last edited by coksiw; 07-28-2022 at 12:20 AM.
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  #225  
Old 07-28-2022, 12:21 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother,
Just fyi there is no distinction between teaching and doctrine. A teaching is a doctrine. You teach doctrine. You indoctrinate with teaching. There is no difference.

If you teach that people should tithe, you are teaching a tithe doctrine.

Albeit false.
I teach that people should give, tithing is one proven method to do it. I donít see where that necessitates any burden on the flock. I do think everyone should examine themselves as to whether we are fulfilling our call in seeking first the kingdom. I believe that includes financial support of local church ministries.
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  #226  
Old 07-28-2022, 12:36 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Iím not suggesting that you break fellowship. What I would like to see is pastors and other leadership that would work to correct it. Iím not advising you to do so either. That would be up to you, obviously.

I do beg to differ with you on the good pattern to support ministries of the church. A GOOD pattern would be one that is scriptural. When we decide to adapt scripture to fit our habits and vision, even though in some cases it may be with good intentions, we have willingly stepped on to a slippery slope. Itís not going to end well (in my humble opinion). And my humility is legendary.



I think this is working from your perspective. I know itís not working from other perspectives. I may share a story later about that.

There is no pattern commanded in the New Testament (Pattern meaning specified amount and time). I think the point is that it should be done freely, from a cheerful heart, out of our prosperity, etc.. there is no instructions as to require a pattern of giving. I personally believe that tithing was probably introduced to create a pattern of sustainable giving within the Catholic Church. There motives may have been greedy, I really donít know, only that history depicts it as so. If tithing is hindering a person from providing for their family then they shouldnít, but if are hearts are right there should be a desire to give, even if we donít always have the means.
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  #227  
Old 07-28-2022, 12:49 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
The weirdest excuse I've seen is "tithing is also a way to prevent the saints from taking advantage of the pastor". That's a very hilariously twisted idea.

I have personally started two congregations, taught/preached a lot from pulpit and in Bible Studies, mentored, made decisions, sang, played, led, organized, trained, traveled to train others... and I have never received a dime from tithing in my entire over two decades of service! Only voluntary offering! Seriously. Never felt saints taking advantage of me. In fact, the immense majority of the work done in activities like quizzing, camps, children's ministries, conferences, visiting, meals to sick people, etc... is done by unpaid saints!
So you have received money? I was under the impression you felt the Bible only permitted to receive things like food? BTW, A person can manipulate people to give through freewill offerings without mentioning tithes, just as easy teaching tithes. Tithes at least sets limits, there are some who would try to take you for everything you are worth. TV evangelist hype up the crowd and convince people by giving an unspecified amount they are planting a seed for their miracle.

Also? Btw Our church does not even push a plate around. We quit a couple years ago. We have a church box, where collections are received and giving is not even made an issue unless there is a special need, or I feel led to to teach or preach on it (and that is rarely). I may actually need to teach on it more often, but like Paul stated in some of his epistles, I donít ever want my motives to become questionable in our church.
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  #228  
Old 07-28-2022, 01:02 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Amen to that brother. And they are happy to do the Lordís work.

Just to make Good Samaritan feel better, Iím posting the tithe doctrine of the ALJC. I donít want him to think Iím picking on UPCI.

ALJC Articles of Faith

TITHING
We believe tithing is Godís financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Mosesí law enjoined it, Israel practiced it when she was right with God, Jesus endorsed it (Matthew 23:23), and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, that is tithes and offerings (Read Malachi 3).

IT looks surprisingly similar to the doctrine of the UPCI. But itís different.

Can you see the difference?
It doesnít make me feel better. I am aware of the strict tithe teachings out there by organizations. Did you know that these articles are voted on, so that doesnít necessarily mean that all are actually sold on them. Just like in our government, I didnít vote for Biden, but he is still my president. The consensus chose to adopt these bylaws, but that doesnít mean there isnít people that may disagree. Unity is something that should be striven for in the body, but there are people, that become offended over things, and instead of having grace, they go on warpath to destroy that which offended them. It becomes more of a personal vendetta then an actual love for the truth.í
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  #229  
Old 07-28-2022, 02:37 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
So you have received money? I was under the impression you felt the Bible only permitted to receive things like food?
LOL, I never said that. If I ever mentioned it is to show you how the application of Malachi is so ridiculously wrong.

Quote:
BTW, A person can manipulate people to give through freewill offerings without mentioning tithes, just as easy teaching tithes.
100% agree

Quote:
Tithes at least sets limits, there are some who would try to take you for everything you are worth.
LOL, you must be so out of touch with reality.

Quote:
TV evangelist hype up the crowd and convince people by giving an unspecified amount they are planting a seed for their miracle.
OK, that's evil too. Yet, it doesn't invalidate the teaching of free will giving because it is BIBLICAL.


Quote:
Also? Btw Our church does not even push a plate around. We quit a couple years ago. We have a church box, where collections are received and giving is not even made an issue unless there is a special need, or I feel led to to teach or preach on it (and that is rarely). I may actually need to teach on it more often, but like Paul stated in some of his epistles, I donít ever want my motives to become questionable in our church.
Good.
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  #230  
Old 07-28-2022, 03:37 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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LOL, you must be so out of touch with reality.
Not really, I know it is a case by case thing, but most pastors here locally where I am from are not teaching for filthy lucre. They honestly believe that tithing is a forever principle that they practice as well. Some of the most glamorous showy churches around are not Tithe teachers, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t pushing that plate enthusiastically.

Those free will offerings you received, did any of them happen to be someone’s tithe you received?

Last edited by good samaritan; 07-28-2022 at 04:13 PM.
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