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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #251  
Old 08-08-2022, 07:06 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Mr Blume is apparently smarter than the apostles. The apostles taught about giving to support the weak and ministry, yet they didn't use the OT tithing to teach 10% of all income as they didn't find it applicable to the NT church. Blume, as others, are capable of creating doctrines the apostles did not discover. They create it from the notoriously absence of it in the NT. Not only that, Blume defends it vehemently.

The doctrine is this: the belief that tithing is the financial plan for the church to support ministry. Most tithing teachers use the OT to teach it, but Blume insists he doesn't, yet the concept is in the OT, so he does, but he doesn't, but he does.

It also takes a simple research to show the development of such false doctrine hundreds of years after the apostles. It is a post-apostolic doctrine. It can't be more clear than that.

The more I see a preacher who benefits from tithing directly or indirectly vehemently defending the modern tithing doctrine, the more their true colors come out. It is better for a tithing preacher to just walk away admitting their doctrine is weak, and messy, or even better, just admitting it is false.
Amen brother!

Because this . . .

It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair”
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  #252  
Old 08-08-2022, 07:54 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
No.



First of all, what is said here must harmonize with what 1 Cor 9 taught, while 1 Cor 9 clearly taught Paul did not say He he was demanded of God, as are all ministers, to forego receiving support from the church as I proved in my exegesis of 1 Cor 9.

So, what is Acts 20 saying?
1 Corinthians 9:13-14
(13).. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
The above passage Must be kept in mind when reading this:
Acts 20:[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Acts 4 shows us how the apostles had a huge responsibility on their shoulders to take what church members owned and gave, and distribute it where it would best fit. Paul would not take anything and make himself rich, as many ministers do today.

Paul did not covet money. He had no love of money.
Acts 20:[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
His life was an example to support the weak and how it is more blessed to give, and he proved it. The weak are those who cannot support themselves. They are the poor. Giving to people like this is completely different than receiving an income from a congregation that Paul plainly stated was the right of those who preach the gospel. All of Paul's positive words about the law-confirming, God-ordained right for ministers to forego working outside the church defeats all that you are using Acts 20 to say. Acts 20 is as much word of God as 1 Cor 9. Therefore, the example of Acts 20 is not meant to say ministers should forego work, because he spoke directly opposite to that in 1 Cor 9. You believe it is wrong for people to give tithes today and is against the word of God. You believe it is wrong for a church to fully support a minister.

The example is to show how we must give and support the weak-- the needy who are poor and poverty-stricken.

If the church cannot support him, as was the case in my own personal ministry, I worked, and am actually working now outside our church. Paul said it is not a sin for him to work as he did. It's an entirely different perspective than that from which you are using this chapter to support the idea that no minister should forego work. You are ruining the context of Acts 20 in favour of further refusing the proper context of 1 Cor 9 to say Acts 20 proves that ministers should never forego work. It proves no such thing. Your conclusion makes a contradiction of 1 Cor 9.

Paul spoke also in terms of starting churches where it would be impossible to receive support solely from the church. There would not be enough. But when the church grew, the minister would then forego work as taught clearly in 1 Cor 9.

What Paul said here is what he explained in 1 Cor 9:15-18 as a CHOICE showing how much he gave of himself in Acts 20's context of thought, that he urged to no other minister.
Brother Blume,

Allow me to ask a hypothetical question. In your case, just for the sake of making the math easy, let’s suppose that you get a hundred thousand Canadian dollars for your efforts at your church. (I’m not saying you do, so remember that part).

Then in our hypothetical situation let’s say that you also GAVE a tenth back to the church (what you might say is a tithe).

Are you a taker or a giver?

And to whom would the ten thousand go to that you “tithed” back to the church?

Two questions.
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  #253  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:34 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Sir, the way you go off topic is pretty annoying. Where did I say that trinitarians should not pray for the sick in Jesus name?
I was not offtrack. You do not follow through logically with your examples. You said that people who pay tithes are blessed due to their faith and God's mercy, then compared that with trinitarians who pray for the sick and see healing. You explained that it is not right for the ministry to forego working, unless I mistook you. And so when I said people gave tithes and were blessed, you responded and said it was God's mercy just as trinitarians pray for the sick and are healed, which does not condone their doctrine of trinity. You, therefore, equated trinitarian doctrine with believer's ideas to give tithes, and, in turn, equated incorrect doctrine of trinity with incorrect doctrine of tithing. The only reason that you would make such a comparison and then summarize it by saying trinitarians who pray for the sick in Jesus' name are seeing God's mercy which does not confirm their doctrine is to say that God's mercy sees people blessed who give tithes which does not confirm their belief that they should give tithes. Seeing as you believe giving tithes is wrong, then by virtue of your own use of the comparison with trinitarianism and belief in giving tithes you are saying belief in giving tithes is as wrong a trinitarianism. Seeing as people should not give tithes according to you, then your comparison implies that trinitarians should not pray for the sick. Otherwise, you should not have used that example.

The fact is you are wrong in saying that it is God's mercy that trinitarians successfully pray for healing as it is God's mercy that tithers are blessed when they tithe. It is not God's mercy, it is honouring FAITH.

Quote:

Healing comes by the grace of God accessed by faith. God is responding to the giving, not to the obedience of 10% minimum.
Who said that everyone who gives tithes are giving to obedience of a minimum of 10%? I do not give tithes for that reason, as I have said many times. And seeing as YOU ADMIT these people have faith, then you must stop telling them to stop giving tithes, because God sure is not telling to stop.

Quote:
There is no promised blessing (or promised curse) based on the merits of obedience to tithing in the NT.
Who said there was? Certainly not me. But I told you that and you missed it.

Quote:

You can't state that because someone is blessed in response to giving 10%, then the 10% doctrine must be right. That's what I said. You are going very off topic and saying nonsense things.
Who said the 10% doctrine is right? Who said that people who give tithes are living by a 10% doctrine. If anything, they are living by the doctrine of faith that you give and and you shall be blessed. But I have been trying to tell you that and you keep missing it, again.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-08-2022 at 08:41 PM.
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  #254  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:38 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Quote:
Mr Blume is apparently smarter than the apostles. The apostles taught about giving to support the weak and ministry, yet they didn't use the OT tithing to teach 10% of all income as they didn't find it applicable to the NT church.
Amen brother!

Because this . . .

It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair”
You guys sure do twist people's words. I never said that the apostles were wrong in saying we should support the weak and ministry! I said the WEAK are poor impoverished people. In truth, that means that your explanation of Acts 20 is wrong when you said Paul taught ministers to NOPT receive support of the church. Do you not read anything someone writes in response to you? Or do you keep making yourself believe that what they are saying is what you WANT them to say so that you can defeat a strawman, when the actual belief being presented to you is far from what you want to believe it is? It is always easier to defeat an argument that is an easy one top defeat in favour of what someone is actually proposing that you cannot so easily defeat. Hence, you are giving a strawman argument.
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #255  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:41 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother Blume,

Allow me to ask a hypothetical question. In your case, just for the sake of making the math easy, let’s suppose that you get a hundred thousand Canadian dollars for your efforts at your church. (I’m not saying you do, so remember that part).
Why did you not actually respond to my post and show the exegetical error in any given particular verse in which you disagree with me, and explain exegetically why it is wrong and provide the correct understanding of that verse?
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #256  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:46 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
So according to you, a teacher, who preaches the Gospel in your church when giving Bible studies, should be paid so he/she doesn't have to work?
According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end.

Quote:
Paul is contextualizing all of that passage to Apostles.
No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.

Quote:

That's my point.
You went off on topics I'm not talking about. Of course he is making the decision to not use his right. I don't argue that nor I say because he does so, all ministry must not take a salary.
So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting income which he simply chose to forego?
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #257  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:49 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Mr Blume is apparently smarter than the apostles.
The apostles taught about giving to support the weak and ministry, yet they didn't use the OT tithing to teach 10% of all income as they didn't find it applicable to the NT church.
False accusation.

I never said they used the 10% OT tithing law. Red herring. But I told you that and you refused to acknowledge that.

Quote:

Blume, as others, are capable of creating doctrines the apostles did not discover. They create it from the notoriously absence of it in the NT. Not only that, Blume defends it vehemently.
False accusation No. 2.

I did not teach nor create a doctrine that saints must use 10% OT law.

Quote:

The doctrine is this: the belief that tithing is the financial plan for the church to support ministry. Most tithing teachers use the OT to teach it, but Blume insists he doesn't, yet the concept is in the OT, so he does, but he doesn't, but he does.
False accusation. NEVER ONCE have I taught the people to give tithes using OT law. I simply said that people can give 10% or any % they wish! But I told you that and you refused to acknowledge it.

Quote:

It also takes a simple research to show the development of such false doctrine hundreds of years after the apostles. It is a post-apostolic doctrine. It can't be more clear than that.
I teach no such doctrine.

Quote:

The more I see a preacher who benefits from tithing directly or indirectly vehemently defending the modern tithing doctrine, the more their true colors come out. It is better for a tithing preacher to just walk away admitting their doctrine is weak, and messy, or even better, just admitting it is false.
I do not believe in any tithing doctrine of any kind. I simply said that people can give 10% or any % they wish! But I told you that and you refused to acknowledge it.

Now, how many more times will you repeat this false accusation of me?
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #258  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:51 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Now, which one of you will show my exegetical error in my layout of 1 Cor 9 and show me what the particular verse's understanding that I give you disagree with and what the verse is actually saying, and why?

Tithesmeister and Coksiw? Which one?
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #259  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:32 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Why did you not actually respond to my post and show the exegetical error in any given particular verse in which you disagree with me, and explain exegetically why it is wrong and provide the correct understanding of that verse?
I thought that post was addressed to Coksiw. Am I wrong?
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  #260  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:35 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Now, which one of you will show my exegetical error in my layout of 1 Cor 9 and show me what the particular verse's understanding that I give you disagree with and what the verse is actually saying, and why?

Tithesmeister and Coksiw? Which one?
I’ll be glad to. I thought that was addressed to Coksiw? I was feeling left out.
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