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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #281  
Old 08-19-2022, 11:52 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
How funny, I know at this moment people not saving for retirement to their 401k because they can't afford it, but yet they give tithes because the preacher said it goes above all the things. Coincidentally, I go to a church where there are several pastors that retired attending, and they are all doing well and not being a burden on anyone. God will sort it all out, though. The "abuse" is in both directions, my friend, and the long term consequences are in both camps.

I think it is easier if we all lower expectations about pastorship not being a career where everybody wants to be full time hired professional, but instead understand that this is the work of God, and most congregations don't need full time ministers but instead training from the beginning, as the vision, to give saints opportunities to take leadership, and eldership, instead of planning for a "succession" of kings, and separate "layman" from "clergy"

The problem is that many saints do want a king, a professional.

1Sa 8:11-18 NKJV - (11) And he said, "This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint [them] for his own chariots and [to be] his horsemen, and [some] will run before his chariots. (12) "He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, [will set some] to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and [some] to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. (13) "He will take your daughters [to be] perfumers, cooks, and bakers. (14) "And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give [them] to his servants. (15) "He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. (16) "And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put [them] to his work. (17) "He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. (18) "And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day."
I wasn’t insinuating that abuse and neglect was only from the pews. I realize that there has been abuse from leaders as well as saints. It seems like this thread is all about those greedy preachers. It is easy to talk about those greedy preachers, but I can tell you that a preacher and his family can be targeted for everything they do. If a preacher is wealthy people will call him greedy, if he is poor he is contemptible.

No matter what anyone’s opinion we better keep our priorities straight.

1st God
2nd family
3rd church

This is a good order for both preachers and saints.
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  #282  
Old 08-19-2022, 11:55 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Isaiah 6:8-13
8......Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9......And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10......Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11......Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12......And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

A remnant shall be saved
13......But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance there of

A sad situation for Israel. The prophet Isaiah was sent to a people who where predestined to reject the message. How would you like to be sent to a people that God already told you that they wasn’t going to convert. Preachers today feel like they are failures because of the success of numbers, but the prophets would have been utter failures if that was the case. Interesting, that the remnant that returns is a tenth.

Last edited by good samaritan; 08-20-2022 at 12:01 AM.
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  #283  
Old 08-20-2022, 12:03 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I wasn’t insinuating that abuse and neglect was only from the pews. I realize that there has been abuse from leaders as well as saints. It seems like this thread is all about those greedy preachers. It is easy to talk about those greedy preachers, but I can tell you that a preacher and his family can be targeted for everything they do. If a preacher is wealthy people will call him greedy, if he is poor he is contemptible.

No matter what anyone’s opinion we better keep our priorities straight.

1st God
2nd family
3rd church

This is a good order for both preachers and saints.
Brother, you have a good heart, and your head on your shoulders. May the Lord keep blessing you in everything, and reward your hard work in the preaching and teaching of the Gospel
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  #284  
Old 08-20-2022, 12:05 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Luke 17:15-17
And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

I know I’ve already posted this but I really feel there is some depth surrounding the tithe of the land that goes further than peoples income.
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  #285  
Old 08-20-2022, 12:09 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Brother, you have a good heart, and your head on your shoulders. May the Lord keep blessing you in everything, and reward your hard work in the preaching and teaching of the Gospel
Thank you and I appreciate your dialogue. The reason I keep coming back to the forum, I glean a lot from everyone.
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  #286  
Old 08-21-2022, 09:28 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
In looking at 1 Cor 9, I don't see where anybody is being discussed except apostles and the congregation. I do not see how 1 Cor 9 itself can be used to support the idea that other teachers, pastors, etc are to receive money in exchange for their ministering.

I also don't see where 1 Cor 9 is discussing money per se. The immediate context is "to eat and drink":
Have we not power to eat and to drink?
(1Co 9:4)
This is in line with Jesus' instructions to His apostles and missionary evagelists:
And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
(Luk 10:7)
The idea that "income back then was food and drink, but today is money" is incorrect. Money was used back then just as it is today: to buy victuals (food and drink, and other needful items). The missionary support program established by Jesus was the missionary was hosted by someone who fed them and gave them a place to stay and from which to preach (free room and board). This was given at a time when there were indeed travelling "teachers" who taught for money. So it is safe and sound to assume Jesus intentionally set things up a certain way for a specific reason. And yes that reason still exists today. The idea that the Bible is relevant to back then but only relevant to us today in the form of "examples from which we can make our own way" is erroneous and way oversimplified. We need to stop thinking we know better than God. There's a reason God's message to mankind (for all time) is in the form it is in.

Now, concerning other teachers (pastors) and elders who have the oversight, I think the Bible DOES teach they are to be supported at least in part by the congregation in some form or another:
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
(1Ti 5:17-18)

Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
(Gal 6:6)
The term "honour" in 1 Tim 5:17 refers to support and maintenance:
Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
(1Ti 5:3-4)

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
(Mar 7:9-12)
Honour thus refers to support and maintenance. This means providing food and other necessary items for living. The elders who have oversight and who are responsible for teaching (what today many would call "pastors") are thus to be supported. In fact, they are to receive a "double" portion. Double of course is relative, they are to receive more than would normally be considered appropriate for the amount of work they put in. IE they were to be like a "highly paid" worker who doesn't necessarily do more work per se than the others, but because of tenure, seniority, and value of the work they do, they get paid more. There are of course others who are to be supported.

Who are the others? Obviously, widows were part of the "others", as we have just seen, and as also seen here:
And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
(Act 6:1-2)

If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
(1Ti 5:16)
We also see this:
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Act 2:45)

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
(Act 4:34-35)
Which explains this:
For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
(2Th 3:7-12)
In other words, the church supported the poor members with necessaries, mostly consisting of making sure the poor had food to eat. This was extended to the elders and teachers, who spent their time ministering the word of God. The REASON of course is because those elders and ministers pretty much did nothing BUT teach and oversee the church. This wasn't "two sermons a week" but a constant daily thing:
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
(Act 5:42)

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(Act 20:31)
Since that was their job, they usually didn't have the means to support themselves. Paul and Barnabas, however, did not use that right for themselves, but they found a way to support themselves. They also taught the elders and teachers they ordained to do the same:
I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
(Act 20:33-35)

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
(2Th 3:7-9)
So, from all this, it appears that missionaries (apostles) were supported by the church when necessary, and supported themselves when possible. Further, teachers and elders were also supported when necessary, and as the opportunity arose, and supported themselves when possible and when needful. And, anybody in the church who was poor and unable to support themself was supported by the church. This support consisted primarily in food, as well as lodging when needed. But it cannot be said that money was wholly and entirely ruled out or forbidden, since what we are seeing taught is the idea of support that meets the need. If the need is a monetary need (pay the bills, pay for transportation, pay to buy food, etc) then money would certainly be included in the idea of support.

That being said, there does not appear to be anything remotely hinting at any "stated income" of money offered in exchange for teaching. IE a "salary". It appears that the goal was to make sure elders, teachers, missionaries, etc get the job done, and that everybody was involved in making that happen. Also, the poor, widows, etc were to be supported when and where needed.

Unfortunately most modern "churches" are just for profit businesses focusing on motivational speeches and entertainment ("worship") and social clubbing (the singles "ministry", the married couples "ministry", the seniors "ministry") while maintaining a charade of "non profit status" to get away from reporting income and paying taxes.
Thank you Esaias! You nailed it. I completely agree.
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  #287  
Old 08-21-2022, 10:10 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I was under the impression you were asserting that food was the PRIMARY income and currency in use at that time. I do believe you were saying that.
No, I was not. I stated all along that elements aside from money were used in their forms of income. That is what I always meant, whether or not it came across that way.
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  #288  
Old 08-23-2022, 09:41 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Thank you Esaias! You nailed it. I completely agree.
Then you must believe that pastors and anybody other than apostles do not minister the Gospel. Okaaay.
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  #289  
Old 08-23-2022, 09:45 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Every good gift comes from God. So, even Donald Trump has been blessed with wealth, power, influence, etc. That doesn't say anything whatsoever about the propriety of the methods by which he achieved wealth, power, and influence.
That is apples and oranges to God blessing people to support their pastor. That has nothing to with people like Trump as though God blessed him with wealth.

Quote:
Did you ever explain the following passage?
I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
(Act 20:33-35)
Did the apostle not tell the elders that they were to follow his example and work and provide support out of their own pockets (as it were) for the needy in the local congregation? Does this apostolic instruction apply to you? If not, why not?
Yes, I did explain that. It is talking about helping the weak and poverty-stricken. It has nothing to do with whether or not ministers receive income. And Paul flatly stated that he had a right to be fully supported, and abrogated it.
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  #290  
Old 08-23-2022, 09:49 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

I still have not seen an exegesis of 1 Cor 9 from you brethren, Coksiw and Tithesmeister.
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