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WPF News Discussion of the WWPF meetings in Tulsa and related sidetracks.


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Old 06-09-2012, 12:48 PM
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High & Low High & Low is offline
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Authority of Pastors

I heard a WPF pastor say that a Woman should follow her husband as he follows Christ. But if her husband isn't living right, she should follow the Pastor. .....I know WPF is an organization that puts Pastors on a pedestal. Someone please tell me where there is Scripture that gives Pastors so much control and authority. ....please don't waste your time,....just tell me WHY Pastors think they have full authority over their congregants and why they believe God only speaks to them regarding certain situations and when a person says they have prayed about it and that answer is contrary to what the Pastor told them, the Pastor tells them that they didn't hear from God and to keep praying about it.

Scripture says the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance. My feel of things is that God can speak thru anybody for the sake of his people, but that even tho there are many many proclaimed Men of God, there are really very few true Men of God. Any thoughts?
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:12 PM
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Re: Authority of Pastors

The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:46 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Some may consider me the King of "pastor bashing" here, or at least a 2nd cousin to the Prince (I am hyper alert to what I perceive as abuse and control issues in church leadership), but that is a good balanced answer Sam.
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Old 06-11-2012, 05:49 PM
DaveC519 DaveC519 is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.
A good, reasoned response!
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2012, 01:21 PM
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acerrak acerrak is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Quote:
Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you
though sam the word obey really isnt translated from the greek like it should be. it is more like be Persuaded by, instead of Obey
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:01 AM
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trialedbyfire trialedbyfire is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.
Probably one of the best responses I've heard on this.
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2012, 04:47 PM
deafdriscoll deafdriscoll is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

I follow only words that line up with the word of God in contex.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:05 PM
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Quote:
Originally Posted by deafdriscoll View Post
I follow only words that line up with the word of God in contex.
good policy
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:27 PM
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The Matt The Matt is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Quote:
Originally Posted by High & Low View Post
I heard a WPF pastor say that a Woman should follow her husband as he follows Christ. But if her husband isn't living right, she should follow the Pastor. .....I know WPF is an organization that puts Pastors on a pedestal. Someone please tell me where there is Scripture that gives Pastors so much control and authority. ....please don't waste your time,....just tell me WHY Pastors think they have full authority over their congregants and why they believe God only speaks to them regarding certain situations and when a person says they have prayed about it and that answer is contrary to what the Pastor told them, the Pastor tells them that they didn't hear from God and to keep praying about it.

Scripture says the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance. My feel of things is that God can speak thru anybody for the sake of his people, but that even tho there are many many proclaimed Men of God, there are really very few true Men of God. Any thoughts?
Didn't Paul have full authority over his church? He was the original pastor.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:36 PM
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Cindy Cindy is offline
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Re: Authority of Pastors

Why does a woman have to follow her husband? Why can't she follow Christ on her own? I don't think most Pastor's feel they have full authority over people's lives. I hope most of them think they are shepherds that guide their flock.
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He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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