Ghost are they real?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But only after Samuel's identity is affirmed by the witch. Saul couldn't see or hear anything. Everything is going through the medium. It specifically says "by the familiar spirit". She's channeling.

If it really is Samuel, then a demonised witch can raise the dead and wring forth genuine prophecy on demand even after God has refused to speak???? That sounds crazy, bro.

My point is not about the characters in the story. My whole point is what the author tells us about the who is who in the story. We are being told by the author who the characters are. The witch did nothing, she was shocked that she screamed, because now she was really in trouble. But God wouldn't answer Saul when he was trying the regular legal means. Saul even goes as far to gain some points with God by killing off the witches. But, Saul is Saul, and when he doesn't get his way, he asks his law breaking stooges "where are some witches I can parley with?" They didn't say, "well, you know king that we got rid of them all?" No, they knew where they could find the dirty politician a witch. So, Saul has finally filled the cup to overflowing, he will not be told a sweet love message about winning or losing a war, whether to go or to stay. But his old prophet is awakened to tell Saul, that he and his lineage is done like the dinner dishes. We read no more about anyone bringing up dead people. We only have one, and that one was the wax job on Saul's Cadillac. Again, the only one who tells us who the spirit really is, is the writer of the story. If he would of wrote, and the SPIRIT said to Saul. Then well, we would know it surely wasn't Samuel. But, the writer tells us it is indeed Samuel. I didn't write the story, so I'm not crazy, the writer of 1st Samuel is crazy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Gill makes an interesting case:

And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?.... This makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham's bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men and devils to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:

Abraham's bosom is a parable, and souls sleep in the grave until judgement. Samuel was awakened. It only happened this one time, and for a very important judgement call.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My point is not about the characters in the story. My whole point is what the author tells us about the who is who in the story. We are being told by the author who the characters are. The witch did nothing, she was shocked that she screamed, because now she was really in trouble. But God wouldn't answer Saul when he was trying the regular legal means. Saul even goes as far to gain some points with God by killing off the witches. But, Saul is Saul, and when he doesn't get his way, he asks his law breaking stooges "where are some witches I can parley with?" They didn't say, "well, you know king that we got rid of them all?" No, they knew where they could find the dirty politician a witch. So, Saul has finally filled the cup to overflowing, he will not be told a sweet love message about winning or losing a war, whether to go or to stay. But his old prophet is awakened to tell Saul, that he and his lineage is done like the dinner dishes. We read no more about anyone bringing up dead people. We only have one, and that one was the wax job on Saul's Cadillac. Again, the only one who tells us who the spirit really is, is the writer of the story. If he would of wrote, and the SPIRIT said to Saul. Then well, we would know it surely was Samuel. But, the writer tells us it is indeed Samuel. I didn't write, so I'm not crazy, the writer of 1st Samuel is crazy.

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

When Scripture tells us God has nostrils, feathers, etc what do we make of it? Is it possible the writer is narrating the account from the point of view of the account? (Not sure if that made sense?) Supposing this was really Samuel creates far more difficulties than the idea she was channeling by a familiar spirit and the recorder simply states what is happening without providing the reader a theological interpretation. That, to me, seems the most Scripturaland reasonable.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I do not doubt what the writer is telling us. I have grave (!) doubts about the popular interpretation of what the writer is telling us.

Yes, but I can only go with what I'm being told by the author. He is filling us in on what is going on in the story. Using Samuel's name is strong indicating evidence that we have Samuel telling Saul how the cow eats the cabbage.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

When Scripture tells us God has nostrils, feathers, etc what do we make of it? Is it possible the writer is narrating the account from the point of view of the account? (Not sure if that made sense?) Supposing this was really Samuel creates far more difficulties than the idea she was channeling by a familiar spirit and the recorder simply states what is happening without providing the reader a theological interpretation. That, to me, seems the most Scripturaland reasonable.

So, why didn't we have the author just tell us it was a spirit instead of Samuel?

He doesn't, he tells us it was Samuel. Neither is it symbolic metaphor to use Samuel's name.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Satan tried provoking Jesus to do things, but unlike David, Jesus didn't follow through.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, why didn't we have the author just tell us it was a spirit instead of Samuel?

He doesn't, he tells us it was Samuel. Neither is it symbolic metaphor to use Samuel's name.

But he sets the stage by describing her as one who "divine(s) by the familiar spirit". I wasn't saying it was metaphor, I am saying within the immediate context the scribe - after having established she is going to divine by a familiar spirit - stays within that immediate conversation without interrupting to provide commentary.

I will look further into this. The "it was really and truly Samuel" side needs to explain some things, though, like how Samuel is communicating through a medium. That implies she was possessed by Samuel himself????

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Satan tried provoking Jesus to do things, but unlike David, Jesus didn't follow through.

Yet the Chronicler says it was the Lord?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I think this is resolved by knowing that in Hebrew, "Satan" is not preceded by ha, that is, the prefix when attached to a word, that means "the".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/21-1.htm

So, in this case, it's not SATAN, but rather, a satan (or adversary) that stood up against Israel and provoked David.

The adversary then, is God Himself, or His Angel, as is the case regarding the Angel of Jehovah being called a "satan" in Numbers 22:22:

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/numbers/22-22.htm

Compare these to Job 1:6, where the Hebrew has ha, as in The Adversary (The Satan):

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/1-6.htm

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I think this is resolved by knowing that in Hebrew, "Satan" is not preceded by ha, that is, the prefix when attached to a word, that means "the".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/21-1.htm

So, in this case, it's not SATAN, but rather, a satan (or adversary) that stood up against Israel and provoked David.

The adversary then, is God Himself, or His Angel, as is the case regarding the Angel of Jehovah being called a "satan" in Numbers 22:22:



See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/numbers/22-22.htm

Compare these to Job 1:6, where the Hebrew has ha, as in The Adversary (The Satan):

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/1-6.htm

My point was that Scripture sometimes calls one thing by another, does it not?