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Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun! |
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11-02-2021, 02:08 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jito463
Really? Your dogs have philosophical arguments about their place in the universe? They create art based around their conscious understanding of the world?
Animals act on instinct alone. They can be trained to behave certain ways, but that's training and nothing more. Animals are not self-aware.
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Do you own a pit? Or Giant Schnauzer? They have rudimentary planning abilities.
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11-02-2021, 02:16 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Do you own a pit? Or Giant Schnauzer? They have rudimentary planning abilities.
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I have cats, turkey, and a few chickens. While I think at time that the cat are contemplating my existence, they are really only concerned with a few things. Full bowls of food and water, clean litter box, and to acknowledge them from time to time. They turkey is focused on being let out in the yard in the morning, as well as the chickens. clean water (which they will drink out of anything they find) and feed. None of them are self conscious, they are never embarrassed.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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11-02-2021, 05:52 PM
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Covenant Apostolic
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,765
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Do you own a pit? Or Giant Schnauzer? They have rudimentary planning abilities.
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If you watch a wolf pack hunt, you can see it's a coordinated effort.
Or watch my pointer pick pocket the hankerchief out of my husbands pocket to tease him, then prance around doing a victory wiggle.
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11-02-2021, 09:22 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jito463
Really? Your dogs have philosophical arguments about their place in the universe? They create art based around their conscious understanding of the world?
Animals act on instinct alone. They can be trained to behave certain ways, but that's training and nothing more. Animals are not self-aware.
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You must not be around many Dogs. I have owned many and raised most inside. Its amazing how smart they can get. They are aware when its time for their meals and time for their treats.
They know the difference if I accidently give their bowl of food to one of the others and the others also. They wont eat out of the others bowl unless they wait to see if I give them permission.
When they are riding in the car they know where the other Dogs in the neighborhood live. I had one as soon as we got close to where several other Dogs lived she would begin snarling knowing they would come out and chase the car.
Each of the 4 know the others names and respond to their own. I suggest get one and raise it in the house. You will be surprised as you see them mature.
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11-02-2021, 11:45 PM
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Believe, Obey, Declare
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupelo Ms.
Posts: 3,867
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
You must not be around many Dogs. I have owned many and raised most inside. Its amazing how smart they can get. They are aware when its time for their meals and time for their treats.
They know the difference if I accidently give their bowl of food to one of the others and the others also. They wont eat out of the others bowl unless they wait to see if I give them permission.
When they are riding in the car they know where the other Dogs in the neighborhood live. I had one as soon as we got close to where several other Dogs lived she would begin snarling knowing they would come out and chase the car.
Each of the 4 know the others names and respond to their own. I suggest get one and raise it in the house. You will be surprised as you see them mature.
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Dogs also have the ability to detect what you are looking at...meaning they are strong observers of what has your attention. Its probably a throwback to pack behavior that allowed dog ancestors to hunt in backs and coordinate.
Kat went on a prayer walk one night a few weeks ago. We live out in the country. There are 3 dogs nearby that are VERY sociable and protective over her and Abby when we are out walking. This night they actually tried blocking her path....straight up getting in her way...turns out there was a black bear drinking from a pond not too far off the gravel road...they knew it and were trying to keep her from getting closer.
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Blessed are the merciful for they SHALL obtain mercy.
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11-03-2021, 01:56 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,440
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
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Hi, Mike. I listened to your video teaching. I think you miss the application that Trinitarians make wherever in the Scriptures God refers to Himself, or is referred to, as One.
The verse you quoted: Isaiah 40:25,
Quote:
25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
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As you mentioned, it is the LORD who was speaking here. As I know you know, LORD refers to YHVH, that is, Jehovah. The Trinitarian view is that each of the Persons of the Godhead are equally YHVH or Jehovah, and as such, can and do speak as One Being, Who is God, fully within their respective rights to speak one behalf of the other Persons, or, speaking on the behalf of God Himself.
So, when this One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, rhetorically asks "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal" the reason there exists in the verse a "me" and an "I" is because it is the One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, is speaking. Said another way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are speaking in unison as a Unity, or Singularity, if you will.
The question, therefore, is NOT asking if the Three Persons within the Godhead are equal to each other, as if the inquiry was coming from within, but rather, that One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, is rhetorically asking if any other being OUTSIDE of Him, can be likened to Him, or made His equal.
Now, none of that means that any of that is true, or has to be received as doctrine. But it is important to understand it correctly, if you are intending to refute it. One cannot simply reduce the doctrine of the Trinity down to one verse as proof of its error, especially if one doesn't know how or in what way, the Trinitarian understands that one verse, any more than one should attempt to use one verse in an effort to refute Oneness, and etc.
The matters here are much more complex.
Look to what Esaias posted. Classic Trinitarian doctrine does not use the word "person" or "persons" the same way as most of us do, especially not in any theological sense. One must look to the original Greek uses of hupostasis and homoousios (and not homoousious) in the creeds to properly understand their doctrine.
Last edited by votivesoul; 11-03-2021 at 02:00 AM.
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11-03-2021, 05:24 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
Hi, Mike. I listened to your video teaching. I think you miss the application that Trinitarians make wherever in the Scriptures God refers to Himself, or is referred to, as One.
The verse you quoted: Isaiah 40:25,
As you mentioned, it is the LORD who was speaking here. As I know you know, LORD refers to YHVH, that is, Jehovah. The Trinitarian view is that each of the Persons of the Godhead are equally YHVH or Jehovah, and as such, can and do speak as One Being, Who is God, fully within their respective rights to speak one behalf of the other Persons, or, speaking on the behalf of God Himself.
So, when this One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, rhetorically asks "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal" the reason there exists in the verse a "me" and an "I" is because it is the One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, is speaking. Said another way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are speaking in unison as a Unity, or Singularity, if you will.
The question, therefore, is NOT asking if the Three Persons within the Godhead are equal to each other, as if the inquiry was coming from within, but rather, that One Being, Who is God, named YHVH or Jehovah, is rhetorically asking if any other being OUTSIDE of Him, can be likened to Him, or made His equal.
Now, none of that means that any of that is true, or has to be received as doctrine. But it is important to understand it correctly, if you are intending to refute it. One cannot simply reduce the doctrine of the Trinity down to one verse as proof of its error, especially if one doesn't know how or in what way, the Trinitarian understands that one verse, any more than one should attempt to use one verse in an effort to refute Oneness, and etc.
The matters here are much more complex.
Look to what Esaias posted. Classic Trinitarian doctrine does not use the word "person" or "persons" the same way as most of us do, especially not in any theological sense. One must look to the original Greek uses of hupostasis and homoousios (and not homoousious) in the creeds to properly understand their doctrine.
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Thanks for watching. Im aware of what you are saying. I had a debate/discussion yesterday with 4 Trinitarian heavyweights in a room of over 50 people most all of them Trins.
When I make a Youtube it may be short and straight to the point as this one was. No idea who will see it The normal Trinitarian scholar will probably pass it by. A Oneness Pentecostal may be strengthened by it.
Looking back to 1979-80 as a young believer in Jesus and a nominal Trinitarian it didn't take all the learning I have now to convince me of Oneness when I actually put my heart and mind to understand the doctrine.
I know the Trins say that when one is speaking they are all speaking. And when one is present they all are present. And that each one is in the other one. My approach is none of that is close to Bible truth.
Rather to reach out to those who were perhaps like myself. Searching for deeper revelation of the Lord but not knowing near what I know now. Actually it only took 2 scriptures to start off my journey into Oneness doctrine.
On the other hand the FIRST TIME I was actually presented with the classic doctrine of Trinity that the One God is three co equal and co eternal persons each one distinct from the other I recognized it as false.
So I dont feel the need to have to delve deeper into Trinitarian theory and spend time dismantling it in my teachings, discussions, and videos. Dont get me wrong. I have been presented with all of it.
I believe if one loves the truth they will accept the word. It may take them a long time or not so long.
This particular video may be of no use to you. Perhaps you get it that the Holy One is actually one being or person. Trinitarians do not see God as he presents himself in Isaiah 40:25
But if they slow down and think about it they just might be helped by something as simple as this video.
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11-03-2021, 06:32 AM
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J.esus i.s t.he o.ne God (463)
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Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,806
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
You must not be around many Dogs. I have owned many and raised most inside. Its amazing how smart they can get. They are aware when its time for their meals and time for their treats.
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That's training and conditioning, not self awareness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
They know the difference if I accidently give their bowl of food to one of the others and the others also. They wont eat out of the others bowl unless they wait to see if I give them permission.
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Again, same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
When they are riding in the car they know where the other Dogs in the neighborhood live. I had one as soon as we got close to where several other Dogs lived she would begin snarling knowing they would come out and chase the car.
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Yep, same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Each of the 4 know the others names and respond to their own. I suggest get one and raise it in the house. You will be surprised as you see them mature.
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I'm not arguing that they're not intelligent. Intelligence is not self awareness, however.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist
Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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11-03-2021, 09:37 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jito463
That's training and conditioning, not self awareness.
Again, same thing.
Yep, same thing.
I'm not arguing that they're not intelligent. Intelligence is not self awareness, however.
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a 100% correct.
My cats and other animals have intelligence, they are by no means self aware.
They never have the thought "cogito, ergo sum"
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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11-03-2021, 09:43 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: Are There Co Equal God Persons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Looking back to 1979-80
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__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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