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  #41  
Old 01-05-2021, 06:26 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
What were they guilty of?

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(Gal 4:8-10)

1. They were returning to pagan worship rites.

2. They were observing a non biblical, pagan holy day calendar.

3. While still claiming to be Christians.

Yep, you are right. MANY Christians - in fact MOST Christians - are guilty of the same thing the Galatians were guilty of.
But chapters 1-3 was talking about gentiles not having to observe the law. Your interpretation of Gal 4:8-10 is interesting. To me, it doesn’t fit into the context of what Paul had been discussing

Case in point-
Gal 3:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
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  #42  
Old 01-05-2021, 06:52 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
But chapters 1-3 was talking about gentiles not having to observe the law. Your interpretation of Gal 4:8-10 is interesting. To me, it doesn’t fit into the context of what Paul had been discussing

Case in point-
Gal 3:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

My sentiments exactly. What does this have to do with pagan feasts?
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  #43  
Old 01-06-2021, 02:47 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
But chapters 1-3 was talking about gentiles not having to observe the law. Your interpretation of Gal 4:8-10 is interesting. To me, it doesn’t fit into the context of what Paul had been discussing

Case in point-
Gal 3:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
If you look at the verses I quoted you will see what was going on with the Galatians, and what the issue actually was.

1. Paul talks about how prior to becoming Christians they were pagans doing service to things that were not gods.

2. He then says they were now turning BACK to their previous bondage. This can only mean a return to some form of paganism.

3. Yet they continued to consider themselves Christians. They weren't saying "Let's abandon Jesus altogether". Therefore they were introducing their old pagan worship into the worship of Jesus.

4. He says they are now "observing days, and months, and times, and years." This is a clear reference to a liturgical worship calendar. The question is "Which calendar? God's? Or a pagan calendar?" The phrase he uses (days, months, times, and years) is not a reference to the Divine calendar. The Divine calendar is described Biblically as "new moons, sabbaths, and feasts/solemn assemblies", with slight variations on the order. The expression in Colossians 2:16 is an example of a clear reference to the Biblical calendar. That descriptive terminology is not only the Biblical way of referencing the Divine calendar, but was the standard Judean phraseology.

The phraseology in Galatians 4:10 is NOWHERE attested to in either the Bible or mainstream rabbinical Judean literature as a descriptive term for the Biblical calendar. In fact it would have been crystal clear to both Judeans and Greeks of the first century that a pagan calendar is what is being referred to. The Bible calendar does not include an observance of "times" and in fact God specifically forbad such (Lev 19:26, for example). Pagan liturgical calendars were astrological, focusing on days, months (not "new moons"), times, and years. So the Galatians were incorporating pagan liturgical observances and a pagan liturgical calendar into their worship.

Scholar Troy Martin (a non Feast-keeper by the way) demonstrates this in his essay on the subject: https://books.google.com/books?id=Jsv2DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA359

The Judaizing influence was certainly part of this, but the Galatians were not simply being proselytized by run of the mill Jews. This was a syncretistic gnostic form of Judaism. This is proven by not only the use of a non-scriptural liturgical calendar, and by the Galatian heresy involving a RETURN to pagan worship, but by the circumcision issue AS WELL AS the actual "law keeping" at issue in Galatia.

A group of Jews were teaching the Galatians to be circumcised, but IN CONJUNCTION WITH the use of a non-standard and non-Biblical pagan calendar of worship. Additionally, these Judaizers were NOT "torah observant" or "keepers of the law" (Gal 6:13). The requirement for circumcision was NOT being taught as part of Law keeping in the sense of obedience to the law of God, but as part of a sectarian initiation into a syncretizing Jewish-Gnostic illumination cult.

Paul's warnings in ch 6 are not structured to oppose law keeping in the traditional mainstream Jewish sense. Any regular Jew would wholeheartedly AGREE with Paul's reasoning that circumcision makes you a debtor to do "the whole law". His argument though is clearly designed to attack a notion that one could be circumcised and yet NOT be under obligation to the entirety of the torah. Therefore he is attacking a variant non-standard Jewish sectarian movement, one that incorporated circumcision with pagan astrological liturgical observances and elements of pagan worship. That is literally a comprehensive definition of historical 1st century Gnosticism, which was Jewish in origin.
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  #44  
Old 01-06-2021, 03:16 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
But chapters 1-3 was talking about gentiles not having to observe the law. Your interpretation of Gal 4:8-10 is interesting. To me, it doesn’t fit into the context of what Paul had been discussing

Case in point-
Gal 3:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Nothing Peter was doing here was "in accordance with" obeying the law of God. The RABBINICAL prohibition against eating with Greeks/Gentiles was just that - a rabbinic invention. Remember, the Pharisees were staunch supporters of "the law", EXCEPT the law they supported was NOT God's revealed law but RABBINIC TRADITIONS AND RULES. (cf Matt 15:1-14, Mark 2:24ff, Mark 3:4, Luke 11:46, John 7:19, John 7:49, etc).

Judaism claimed (and still does) that "the law" consists not only of the written Scripture, but "oral law" (the Mishna) and the "application" (the halachah), both of which constitute the "traditions of the elders". All of this was called "the law" by the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees. Yet Jesus only recognised the WRITTEN SCRIPTURE as constituting "the (real) law". Paul was constantly dealing with Judaizers and Jews, of the rabbinic variety. His arguments are NEVER directed against obedience to the law of God, but against reliance upon RABBINIC "law" as a measure of righteousness and justification.

Which, nobody in this forum is advocating any means of justification except by Christ, completely in harmony with new testament doctrine.
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  #45  
Old 01-06-2021, 03:28 AM
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
...but by the circumcision issue AS WELL AS the actual "law keeping" at issue in Galatia.

A group of Jews were teaching the Galatians to be circumcised, but IN CONJUNCTION WITH the use of a non-standard and non-Biblical pagan calendar of worship.
Note: T. Martin in his essay referenced earlier posits an alternative situation, where the Galatians are being taught by a circumcision party that they must be circumcised, and in response the Galatians are rejecting Christianity and returning to paganism. Since they believe Christianity requires circumcision, they like 99% of Gentiles reject circumcision and therefore they reject Christianity en toto. I am not convinced that is what was going on, but Martin makes a strong case for his interpretation of the situation. In any event, it has no bearing on the calendar referenced in Gal 4:10.
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  #46  
Old 01-19-2021, 09:47 PM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:18-24)
Here is a prophecy for the "new heavens and the new earth". After asserting the gentiles shall be gathered to behold God's glory, and the establishment of the new priesthood (after the order of Melchizedec), it is plainly asserted that mankind will be following God's calendar - "from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another" - for the express purpose of worship.

Might as well get used to it, cause that what is going to be going on through eternity. That is part and parcel of the worship of God. If a person cannot stomach that now, in this life, what in the world makes them think they will be participating in it in the next? Why, that would literally be HELL for them... participating in worship they disdain...

A lot of people are going to discover they really don't like God, that He and they just aren't on the same page and never really were. They will hear the words "I never knew you". It will dawn on them they never actually knew Him either. His ways were abhorrent to them. They thought He would be just like them. They thought the gospel was about finding the God that looked like them and liked the things they liked. They will discover things are not quite like that. There will be much gnashing of teeth. They will discover the consuming fire of God's glory is for them the fires of the second death.

So sad.
Anyone have the brass to tackle this?
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  #47  
Old 09-02-2022, 12:32 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Bumping this thread for review.
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  #48  
Old 09-02-2022, 02:53 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:18-24)
Who is Isaiah prophesying to? Jews, who keep Sabbaths and new moons (their calendar). This scripture isn’t about the institution of Sabbaths and New Moons for the the New Jerusalem, it is about how the new kingdom will be for all time. Isaiah is prophesying of a eternal kingdom.

Last edited by good samaritan; 09-02-2022 at 02:55 PM.
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2022, 03:01 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
Our culture would understand it this way: And it shall come to pass, from month to month, and week to week, shall all flesh come to worship before me.
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  #50  
Old 09-02-2022, 08:06 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Sabbath and bible feasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Who is Isaiah prophesying to? Jews, who keep Sabbaths and new moons (their calendar). This scripture isn’t about the institution of Sabbaths and New Moons for the the New Jerusalem, it is about how the new kingdom will be for all time. Isaiah is prophesying of a eternal kingdom.

For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:18-24)
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