Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker/The PTL Club Controversy

[Bro Flame]

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were pioneering televangelists in the 1980s. They were the hosts of THE PTL CLUB (standing for "Praise the Lord" or "People that Love"), and founded Heritage USA, a now discontinued Christian theme park located in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

Jim and Tammy came out of the Assemblies of God, but they presented a more charismatic, evangelical-type view of the Christian faith on their television program. One commentator said that the Bakkers "were against the old Pentecostal that was serious and dower," or words to that effect.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were pioneering televangelists in the 1980s. They were the hosts of THE PTL CLUB (standing for "Praise the Lord" or "People that Love"), and founded Heritage USA, a now discontinued Christian theme park located in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

Jim and Tammy came out of the Assemblies of God, but they presented a more charismatic, evangelical-type view of the Christian faith on their television program. One commentator said that the Bakkers "were against the old Pentecostal that was serious and dower," or words to that effect.

Again, the has nothing to do with the "charismatic movement" by definition. The Bakkers were liberal Pentecostals, by definition.

[diakonos]

I do recall one time Benny Hinn made a comment about charismatics to which Jan Crouch replied, “We are charismatic!” Followed by her famous fake laughter.
To which Benny Hinn responded, “I’m not getting into it.” Followed by fake laughter in a fake accent.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by diakonos

I do recall one time Benny Hinn made a comment about charismatics to which Jan Crouch replied, “We are charismatic!” Followed by her famous fake laughter.
To which Benny Hinn responded, “I’m not getting into it.” Followed by fake laughter in a fake accent.

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"

In November 2004, the CBC Television show The Fifth Estate did a special titled "Do You Believe in Miracles" on the apparent transgressions committed by Benny Hinn's ministry.[1]

With the aid of hidden cameras and crusade witnesses, the producers of the show demonstrated Hinn's apparent misappropriation of funds, his fabrication of the truth, and the way in which his staff chose crusade audience members to come on stage to proclaim their miracle healings.[1] In particular, the investigation highlighted the fact that the most desperate miracle seekers who attend a Hinn crusade—the quadriplegics, the brain-damaged, virtually anyone with a visibly obvious physical condition—are never allowed up on stage; those who attempt to get in the line of possible healings are intercepted and directed to return to their seats.

Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:

In 2017, pastor Costi Hinn, a nephew of Benny Hinn, came forward with a testimony of his time spent in Benny Hinn's ministry, and what made him leave.[48][49] In the testimony, Costi Hinn described the expensive cars and lavish houses that he and his family members owned, and the luxury that surrounded their travel. Costi Hinn criticized the prosperity gospel and teachings of his uncle, writing among other things that healings only seemed to work on the "crusades", where music created an atmosphere, and that many of their prophecies contradicted the Bible.[48] He has since written a book titled God, Greed, and the (Prosperity) Gospel on the topic.[50] In the book, Costi Hinn calls the prosperity gospel "damning and abusive", exploitative of the poor and vulnerable, and "arguably the most hateful and abusive kind of false teaching plaguing the church today".[51]

In September 2019, he said that Benny Hinn no longer believed in prosperity theology, and decided to stop teaching it.[52]

For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"




Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:


For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

Well . . .

I believe in tithing. Maybe I should take a crack at this post.

I believe in tithing as it is described in the Bible. The modern tithing doctrine is nothing more or less than a network of lies. To be clear, tithing doctrine as taught in UPCI, WPF, AOG, and many other divisions of Christianity is not just a lie, but it is a network of many lies. It is not mere hypocrisy, it is the very spawn of Satan, the father of all lies.

But many pastors believe that they are going to get a pass.

Why?

Because they believe God is on their side. As if God okays the sin of lying if it is done on His behalf. If they believed God is nearly as powerful as they claim him to be, they would well understand that God doesn’t need them to lie about the tithe.

The truth of the matter is that THEY are the ones who are cashing the tithe checks, in many instances.

How many times have we heard concerning tithing, to “give as unto the Lord”? Matthew twenty five is very specific about how to give as unto the Lord, and neither the church or the pastor rated so much as a mention in the instructions of Jesus as to how to give as unto the Lord. How ironic!

So, why do they teach it? Because it works.

Is it a fraud? Absolutely

Is it a lie? No. It is many lies.

Where do ALL liars go?

Rev.21

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Al liars go the same place as all idolaters, and murderers and whoremongers go, according to the Bible.


I’m not doing pastors any favors by pretending that they are going to heaven, while lying about tithes. They may go to hell, but it won’t be because I didn’t speak up.


If you are bothered by this post, you should be. If you refuse to ask your pastor to defend this doctrine with scripture? You should be ashamed.

I would like to extend a challenge to the heads of the UPCI, the WPF, or any other church leadership to debate me on this forum, using the scripture only as the authority. I think you’ll be surprised how few of them will take the invitation.

D.B. ? Are you there? Are you listening?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"




Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:


For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

Prosperity doctrine is new age "Think And Grow Rich" teaching, from Ken Hagin and his predecessor (can't recall his name at the moment). It has to do with "Name It And Claim It", and the "Sow A Seed Of Faith In My Ministry And You'll Get A Return of 30, 60, or 100 Fold Because God Will Not Keep Himself In Debt". Tithing is part of the prosperity message, too. Meaning the Tithe system is one part among many that make up the Prosperity system.

So one can teach tithing but not be a prosperity teacher. But lately prosperity teaching has been making inroads among tithe teaching churches. Used to be taught as a duty, now as an investment opportunity.

[coksiw]

Not all prosperity Gospels are about tithing, but I see that it is very hard for a modern tithing teacher to not error in the prosperity Gospel doctrine. Promised prosperity on the merits of obedience to a commandment being taught as coming from God.

How funny, the elder on social security hardly making it, it is asked in the modern tithing church to give a portion that means a lot for people at that level of poverty, and they promise a financial "blessing" from God. Contrast that with the early NT church, where the poor and the elderly were the recipients of the gifts.

Some have gone so far to say that if you are poor as an elder is because you "robbed" God when you were younger. How people can get away with this? How can they escape without consequences from this open and continue abuse of the trust of the saints on them as teachers to suck money inappropriately from them?

The people of God are like asleep or something. I guess it will be a thing until the day they can't afford it anymore.

[coksiw]

The fake healing thing from Beny Hinn is sickening as well. False prophets. It amazes me how many people follow that stuff and don't see something "wrong" with it

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The fake healing thing from Beny Hinn is sickening as well. False prophets. It amazes me how many people follow that stuff and don't see something "wrong" with it

Brother, let’s be real. Benny Hinn’s fraud is chicken feed in the grand scheme of the tithe heresy.

I’ll go even further. Bernie Madoff is a lightweight when compared to the con game that is the typical modern day tithe doctrine. Catholics even are generally more truthful than Apostolics when it comes to tithe.

I’m not going to paint with a broad brush and say it’s all apostolics, but it seems that the more conservative apostolics are, the more they beat the false doctrine of the tithes drum.

Speaking of which: I truly regret that I finally cornered SE about having the tithe debate. Is it a coincidence that when he realized that he couldn’t support his doctrine with scripture, he gaslighted us? I don’t think so!

It’s really sad. He seemingly would rather quit the forum than admit his doctrine is contrary to scripture in so many ways.

I hope he’s doing well. I also hope he’s repented from teaching false doctrine. My experience is that they generally just slink away when the going gets tough.

They are so invested in the false doctrine of tithing that they very seldom will change. Yet they profess to love truth. They may love truth until it interferes with their paycheck. They show their true colors when the scripture is expounded on. They lose interest.

That’s been my experience anyway. And it’s been remarkably consistent.

I’m still waiting on the UPCI general superintendent to take my challenge. He’s a gifted debater. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

How many believe that anyone in national leadership of the WPF or UPCI will take my challenge?

I won’t be holding my breath.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, let’s be real. Benny Hinn’s fraud is chicken feed in the grand scheme of the tithe heresy.

I’ll go even further. Bernie Madoff is a lightweight when compared to the con game that is the typical modern day tithe doctrine. Catholics even are generally more truthful than Apostolics when it comes to tithe.

I’m not going to paint with a broad brush and say it’s all apostolics, but it seems that the more conservative apostolics are, the more they beat the false doctrine of the tithes drum.

Speaking of which: I truly regret that I finally cornered SE about having the tithe debate. Is it a coincidence that when he realized that he couldn’t support his doctrine with scripture, he gaslighted us? I don’t think so!

It’s really sad. He seemingly would rather quit the forum than admit his doctrine is contrary to scripture in so many ways.

I hope he’s doing well. I also hope he’s repented from teaching false doctrine. My experience is that they generally just slink away when the going gets tough.

They are so invested in the false doctrine of tithing that they very seldom will change. Yet they profess to love truth. They may love truth until it interferes with their paycheck. They show their true colors when the scripture is expounded on. They lose interest.

That’s been my experience anyway. And it’s been remarkably consistent.

I’m still waiting on the UPCI general superintendent to take my challenge. He’s a gifted debater. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

How many believe that anyone in national leadership of the WPF or UPCI will take my challenge?

I won’t be holding my breath.

Who is SE? Did you contact Bernard?


BTW, he wrote a book recently called "To the end of the Earth".
He said in the book, in one of his visits to Communist Russia: "“The Yugoslav Apostolics didn’t believe in ties (because they were excessive ornamentation) or tithes (because there was no explicit New Testament command).”.

I'm so surprised that him being so educated in History of the Church, and exposed to the opposite argument, he hasn't changed his stance. I think it is just honestly the pressure from the UPCI. Tithing is part of the Articles of faith, so a challenge to that doctrine is a sure booting out from the UPCI fellowship.

Bernard also says in his History of Doctrine book:

“William Penn, an important Quaker leader, founded the colony of Pennsylvania (the name means “Penn’s Woods”) as a refuge for Quakers and other groups. In The Rise and Progress of the People Called Quakers, he identified some of the key characteristics of the Quakers as loving one another, loving enemies, refusing to fight, speaking truth with no oaths, refusing to pay tithes to support the state church, not respecting persons, and using plain speech. He emphasized the need of conversion, regeneration, and holiness.”

I read some of papers myself. No, it was not that they refused to pay tithe to support the state church, they exposed it as a unbiblical and false doctrine, so it wasn't just about the state church, but about the entire concept.