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  #321  
Old 01-11-2022, 01:41 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Have you ever posted on this forum using the username "Sean"?
I'll take your lack of responses as a "yes".
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  #322  
Old 01-11-2022, 02:07 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
The lake of fire is mentioned in one chapter in the bible.
There's also the river of fire:

Daniel 7:9-10 KJV
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

There is also the baptism with fire:

Matthew 3:11-12 KJV
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

These things signify the consuming fire of God's judgment:

Deuteronomy 32:21-22 KJV
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. [22] For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Quote:
And correct me if Im wrong, its referring to a place called “Gehenna”which means “Valley of Hinnom,” referring to a valley just outside Jerusalem.
Jesus referenced this place again while speaking tp the Pharisees and scribes in the seven woes of Matthew 23.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

then just three verses later,

Matthew 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Jesus used the always-burning garbage dump of Gehenna as a picture of the fiery judgment of God. The valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was formerly the site of valley of Topheth where human sacrifices took place.

2 Kings 23:10 KJV
And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

In Isaiah it became a symbol of God's wrath:

Isaiah 30:33 KJV
For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

This is why Jesus referenced Gehenna in the same way. They are essentially the same place, so Gehenna represents what Topheth represented - Divine Wrath.

Quote:
Even in the chapter you were quoting, it mentions the "great city", which I would think was Jerusalem.
The Great City is mentioned in Revelation chapters 11, 14, 16, 17, and 18. Not chapter 20.

Quote:
My question is do you think it was possible that the "lake of fire" was created for that age?
Can't answer for Amanah, but I would say no. The lake of fire is a SYMBOL, it represents God's judgment. God's judgment is a product of His holiness and righteousness. In fact, the words judgment and righteousness are essentially synonymous. As long as God is righteous, He must judge, and judge righteously. Sin will always be under judgment, that is to say, there cannot be a time when sin does not incur judgment, unless there is no sin.

Quote:
Also do you think sinners can become part of the demonic force?
Sounds like a DandD scenario. People don't become actual demons. Regardless of the latest episode of the religious sci fi adventure "Return of the Nephilim".

Quite a few people can be devils, though. And that's 100% Biblical.
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  #323  
Old 01-11-2022, 02:17 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Death, hell, and the grave are destroyed at the final judgement, which means they cease to exist.

The destruction of death will lead to the renewal of the entire created order. It will become a perfect home for the Lamb and his bride. Rev 21:1-22:5

Along with the destruction of death in the lake of fire will be the destruction of all that is evil, including anyone not written in the book of life.

Revelation 20:11-15
English Standard Version
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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  #324  
Old 01-11-2022, 05:15 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Does the lake of fire go out too?
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  #325  
Old 01-11-2022, 05:17 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
They still worship the beast while in torment?
Is that how you have always read that passage?

Last edited by 1 God; 01-11-2022 at 05:20 PM.
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  #326  
Old 01-11-2022, 05:30 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
Does the lake of fire go out too?
Sean? Is that you? Have you ever posted on this forum under the username "Sean"?
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  #327  
Old 01-11-2022, 08:23 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Wow, there has been a lot of long posts here. I won't be able to go through everything but I'll post some defends for what I said here and there.

Regarding the verses from the Scriptures about third heaven (some back then believed in 7 but not necessarily all).

Three layers cosmology starting from Moses:

Deuteronomy 10:14 (NKJV) 14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it.

1 Kings 8:27 (NKJV) 27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!

Nehemiah 9:6 (NKJV) 6 You alone are the LORD;
You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
And You preserve them all.
The host of heaven worships You.

Psalms 115:16 (NKJV) 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.


I'll come back to post about the "going a little bit deeper" part.

Esaias, I'm not doing esegesis because I'm first interpreting the passage in 2 Cor using natural language analysis. Just normal reading and basic study makes you understand that Paul is using rhetoric to humble himself. It is the same conclusion that all those commentary presented. I remember being a new convert, and after reading it, coming to the same conclusion. Your interpretation, on the other hand, it is very "literal", not taking into account that it is an epistle, which is a form of discourse, and it has a strong rhetorical component.

Last edited by coksiw; 01-11-2022 at 08:32 PM.
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  #328  
Old 01-11-2022, 08:29 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Or why do many translations use “waterless” places? What does that say about the abiding place inside of man?
The dry places would seem to be outside of the host, hence the reason the unclean spirit seeks to return to its former home.

I don't think He was teaching specifically on demonology, though. But rather on something else, which would be established by the surrounding context, and had to do with the Judean religious leadership and their fate for rejecting Christ.
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  #329  
Old 01-11-2022, 08:47 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post

Three layers cosmology starting from Moses:
Not one passage of which says three or third, you are reading that into the texts. See my post about an alternative explanation here ---> http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=289



Quote:
Esaias, I'm not doing esegesis because I'm first interpreting the passage in 2 Cor using natural language analysis. Just normal reading and basic study makes you understand that Paul is using rhetoric to humble himself. It is the same conclusion that all those commentary presented. I remember being a new convert, and after reading it, coming to the same conclusion. Your interpretation, on the other hand, it is very "literal", not taking into account that it is an epistle, which is a form of discourse, and it has a strong rhetorical component.
Nonsense. All of it.

By the way, I teach both dialectic and classical rhetoric (with Aphthonius, Cicero, and Quintillian as the primary source material for rhetoric) and I'm quite capable of recognising rhetorical devices and methods. Which you do not seem to be very aware of, as ALL COMMUNICATION IS RHETORICAL. I would say what you are falling victim to is classical sophistry, however.

Paul said he would not boast of himself having visions and revelations. His ethical proofs demand he be honest about that. Ergo, he is (unless he is a liar, which means he has no ethos, and the pathos of his epistle goes down the drain, wiped up with the parchment of his logos). So the person being described as having particular visions and revelations is someone other than himself.

I have NEVER read the passage any other way. When I found people claiming he was ackshuwally boasting about himself, I could only chalk it up to yet another example of standard "trinitarian style logic". Kind of like how some claim when God says He is One He ackshuwally means They are Three...
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  #330  
Old 01-12-2022, 06:37 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
You just called me the wrong username. You can't even open your mouth without belittling people.
Are you one of those super sensitive individuals?
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