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  #411  
Old 01-16-2022, 09:13 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Material human body:
Luke 24:37-39 (NKJV) 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Paul wrote this. If Christ was the firstborn, it implies we will rise like Him:
Col 1:18 (NKJV) 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Paul said this. If he was the first to rise from the dead, then there are second, third, and many more that will rise like Him:
Acts 26:23 (NKJV) 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Same here, but from John:
1 John 3:2 (NKJV) 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
That glorified material human body came from the elements of the non-glorified body, otherwise, the tomb would not be empty:
Luke 24:2-3 (NKJV) 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
The future resurrection is of material human bodies from the elements of the old body:
Jhn 5:28-29 NKJV - 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Awaken from the dust, human bodies coming back to life from the elements of old.
Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV) And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
Our mortal bodies are given life according to this passage, not thrown away and replaced, but are changed from its elements:
Romans 8:11 (NKJV) 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
According to those passages, it is definitely a transformation, not a replacement. God is leaving empty tombs, and that communicates a message. It is human body, but glorified, sanctified, it is real life. It is not a spirit, or some sort of empty vessel. It is of the human kind.

Now, how can you reconcile the passage from Paul about spiritual bodies vs natural bodies with these other passages?

Paul letters are difficult, and were even to the original audience, including Peter himself:
2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You need to unearth Paul intention, so you can see his overall thought flow and what he is trying to say, and then look how Paul used terms in their context, which may not be the way a term is used in other part of the Bible. Sometimes translations make it more obscure than it needs to be as well.


Some phrases sound like contradiction:

For example:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (NKJV) 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was sent from God from heaven in the sense that he was commissioned from Him, but Jesus was also made out of a woman, so dust. However, Paul is comparing Adam made from dust to the Lord from heaven. By mentioning "dust" you get the impression he is comparing forming materials. If the comparison is taken literally, it seems like a contradiction, however, if you look at the context, and his purpose, then you get the point better, as you start realizing how Paul is using the terms and with what intention.

The same with this one:
1 Corinthians 15:50 (NKJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
That phrase, if taken out of the context, at face value, it is contradiction with the things that Jesus told his disciples when he appeared to them. However, you can find out by seeking his purpose, and what he is trying to address, and how he wants to steer the audience to a different thinking. You can see it this way: there are some implicit qualifications (clarification) that go with the terms and phrases he uses.


Some accused Paul of:
(NKJV) 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.
Some used his phrases taken out of context to get to that conclusion, and most likely intentionally, to ridicule him.

Paul was in many occasions more focus on steering the audience than trying to be accurate. With not being "accurate" I mean being truthful but not clarifying or balancing out those profound terms and reasoning he uses right on the letter being written, because of the issue at hand, and there is an assumption of some things being understood (it is a letter after all). Basically, highlighting only certain angles of the topic to make a point and steer people's thinking. That's why all the context (and the different kinds of them) is crucial to truly understand the point. By the way, we do that all the time in our speech, except in mathematics proofs .
This is an excellent post.
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  #412  
Old 01-16-2022, 09:25 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Material human body:
Luke 24:37-39 (NKJV) 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Paul wrote this. If Christ was the firstborn, it implies we will rise like Him:
Col 1:18 (NKJV) 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Paul said this. If he was the first to rise from the dead, then there are second, third, and many more that will rise like Him:
Acts 26:23 (NKJV) 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Same here, but from John:
1 John 3:2 (NKJV) 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
That glorified material human body came from the elements of the non-glorified body, otherwise, the tomb would not be empty:
Luke 24:2-3 (NKJV) 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
The future resurrection is of material human bodies from the elements of the old body:
Jhn 5:28-29 NKJV - 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Awaken from the dust, human bodies coming back to life from the elements of old.
Daniel 12:1-3 (NKJV) And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
Our mortal bodies are given life according to this passage, not thrown away and replaced, but are changed from its elements:
Romans 8:11 (NKJV) 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
According to those passages, it is definitely a transformation, not a replacement. God is leaving empty tombs, and that communicates a message. It is human body, but glorified, sanctified, it is real life. It is not a spirit, or some sort of empty vessel. It is of the human kind.

Now, how can you reconcile the passage from Paul about spiritual bodies vs natural bodies with these other passages?

Paul letters are difficult, and were even to the original audience, including Peter himself:
2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You need to unearth Paul intention, so you can see his overall thought flow and what he is trying to say, and then look how Paul used terms in their context, which may not be the way a term is used in other part of the Bible. Sometimes translations make it more obscure than it needs to be as well.


Some phrases sound like contradiction:

For example:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (NKJV) 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was sent from God from heaven in the sense that he was commissioned from Him, but Jesus was also made out of a woman, so dust. However, Paul is comparing Adam made from dust to the Lord from heaven. By mentioning "dust" you get the impression he is comparing forming materials. If the comparison is taken literally, it seems like a contradiction, however, if you look at the context, and his purpose, then you get the point better, as you start realizing how Paul is using the terms and with what intention.

The same with this one:
1 Corinthians 15:50 (NKJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
That phrase, if taken out of the context, at face value, it is contradiction with the things that Jesus told his disciples when he appeared to them. However, you can find out by seeking his purpose, and what he is trying to address, and how he wants to steer the audience to a different thinking. You can see it this way: there are some implicit qualifications (clarification) that go with the terms and phrases he uses.


Some accused Paul of:
(NKJV) 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.
Some used his phrases taken out of context to get to that conclusion, and most likely intentionally, to ridicule him.

Paul was in many occasions more focus on steering the audience than trying to be accurate. With not being "accurate" I mean being truthful but not clarifying or balancing out those profound terms and reasoning he uses right on the letter being written, because of the issue at hand, and there is an assumption of some things being understood (it is a letter after all). Basically, highlighting only certain angles of the topic to make a point and steer people's thinking. That's why all the context (and the different kinds of them) is crucial to truly understand the point. By the way, we do that all the time in our speech, except in mathematics proofs .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
But are you carnal?

Could you please look up the definition of carnal, and post it on AFF?

Please?

Better yet just tell us what you think carnal means, and I will post the real definition of carnal.

If you have fathered children, you are (or have been, at least) carnal.

Was Paul carnal?

Is it possible to be carnal, and yet be spiritual, simultaneously?
Bump for Nicodemus.

Are you carnal?

Was Paul carnal?
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  #413  
Old 01-16-2022, 10:27 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
But are you carnal?

Could you please look up the definition of carnal, and post it on AFF?

Please?

Better yet just tell us what you think carnal means, and I will post the real definition of carnal.

If you have fathered children, you are (or have been, at least) carnal.

Was Paul carnal?

Is it possible to be carnal, and yet be spiritual, simultaneously?
Definition of Carnality:
"The quality or state of being merely temporal or worldly; lack of spiritual vitality or maturity"

Now, please show me where carnality is associated with things in the spirit.

See you'll go very far to prove yourself right and others wrong, which for someone like yourself that's fine. You want to justify someone being carnal by having children, or having a desire to eat something. And in a twisted way of self justification, or maybe a pat on the old back you get a kick out of it.

Like Paul said, whom I know you consider of being carnal,

Romans 8:8
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


Paul is obviously speaking about carnality in a way that you're not thinking. If being carnal is merely living in a temporary body that needs food, and water and has a natural desire to be with the opposite sex, then either you or Paul is mistaken.
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  #414  
Old 01-16-2022, 10:35 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Definition of Carnality:
"The quality or state of being merely temporal or worldly; lack of spiritual vitality or maturity"

Now, please show me where carnality is associated with things in the spirit.

See you'll go very far to prove yourself right and others wrong, which for someone like yourself that's fine. You want to justify someone being carnal by having children, or having a desire to eat something. And in a twisted way of self justification, or maybe a pat on the old back you get a kick out of it.

Like Paul said, whom I know you consider of being carnal,

Romans 8:8
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


Paul is obviously speaking about carnality in a way that you're not thinking. If being carnal is merely living in a temporary body that needs food, and water and has a natural desire to be with the opposite sex, then either you or Paul is mistaken.
Thank you for posting the definition of carnal (finally).

Now for the (third?) time.

Brother Nicodemus, are you carnal?

Was Paul carnal?

Such a simple, yes or no question. Why is it so difficult for you?
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  #415  
Old 01-16-2022, 11:46 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Thank you for posting the definition of carnal (finally).

Now for the (third?) time.

Brother Nicodemus, are you carnal?

Was Paul carnal?

Such a simple, yes or no question. Why is it so difficult for you?
Because if I answer I'm concerned that you'll use my answer as a to justify yourself.
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  #416  
Old 01-16-2022, 11:59 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” We read this same word in;

1Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


Paul calls them carnal and even refers to them as brethren. We can conclude that a christian can be carnal, the Bible as we all should understands makes no man as sinless except Jesus Christ. Every time we sin, we were acting carnally.

Some believers believe we can live in a carnal, "fleshy" lifestyle all the while live a spirit filled life filled with the miraculous. I do not believe one can do that, you cannot serve two masters, you either will follow after the spirit or you will follow after the flesh/carnality.

I repeat the words of Paul, "for to be carnally minded is death...."

Unless this is one of those "not accurate" writings in Pauls ministry...
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  #417  
Old 01-16-2022, 12:02 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Brother Nicodemus,

We have Bible where Paul said he was carnal. So Paul made a statement testifying to the fact that he was carnal. (He is no longer carnal, of course.)
How do we know?

Some signs include:

He no longer has a pulse.
He no longer is eating and drinking.
He no longer is sweating.
He no longer is tempted.

I hope you get the point . . .

But we have a brother who (so far at least) will not confess to being carnal. This is really puzzling.

There are a couple of possibilities that come to my mind . . .

1. That Paul was more carnal than Brother Nicodemus.
Not really. I don’t think that’s it.

2. Paul was more humble than Brother Nicodemus.
Maybe this is it.

And a bonus . . .

3. Paul had a better understanding of carnality than Brother Nicodemus.
I think this is the winner.

Actually I believe it’s a combination of two and three.

You seem to believe that Paul was insulting his church brethren when he told them that they were carnal. I don’t believe he was. I believe he was teaching them. They were babes in Christ. It probably wouldn’t be wise to insult them. I don’t believe he was lying to them. So I believe he was teaching them. And I believe that he was probably less carnally minded than you. I know you seem to believe otherwise.

So in the spirit of Paul, I am trying to lead you to the truth. Pretend to be humble for just a moment. Put away your attitude, and really think about the possibility that you are wrong.

And tell me what you think this passage of scripture means.

Rom.15

[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Hint: The mother Church at Jerusalem was experiencing famine. So the Gentiles were sharing carnal things with them.

What were these carnal things?
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  #418  
Old 01-16-2022, 12:12 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” We read this same word in;

1Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


Paul calls them carnal and even refers to them as brethren. We can conclude that a christian can be carnal, the Bible as we all should understands makes no man as sinless except Jesus Christ. Every time we sin, we were acting carnally.

Some believers believe we can live in a carnal, "fleshy" lifestyle all the while live a spirit filled life filled with the miraculous. I do not believe one can do that, you cannot serve two masters, you either will follow after the spirit or you will follow after the flesh/carnality.

I repeat the words of Paul, "for to be carnally minded is death...."

Unless this is one of those "not accurate" writings in Pauls ministry...
The problem is not that I believe Paul is inaccurate. The problem is that I believe that your interpretation of Paul’s words are inaccurate.

If you take Paul’s words in context, you have canal minded people being or becoming dead.

What does this mean?

It means that this body is gonna die. If you aren’t a Spirit-filled believer you’re dead. There is no promise of eternal life with Jesus. Instead there is a second death. To be carnally minded is death. There is no abundance of life.

There you go.
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  #419  
Old 01-16-2022, 12:16 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Because if I answer I'm concerned that you'll use my answer as a to justify yourself.
So you won’t tell the truth, because you’re worried that the truth will be something that I can’t handle?

You’re a piece of work.

I think you are confusing carnal with sinful.

Is that it?

Do you think I’m living a sinful lifestyle?

And I’m trying to justify that lifestyle?
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  #420  
Old 01-16-2022, 01:30 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

I shouldn’t have used the word “accurate” because it was not very accurate
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