Tony Spell has church in spite of the ban

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay. What specifically is the difference in what you have said, and what I said? It appears to me that you have said the same thing.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

You are making a distinction that doesn't exist. Churches are exempt from taxation under current law based on Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. If the church isn't exempt under these rules, they aren't exempt at all. In fact, if you have a church that isn't a 501(c)(3), you probably don't legally have a church. What you are actually referring to is the official recognition of that status, which is a whole process unto itself.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

Again, this is incorrect. Official recognition of 501(c)(3) status is in the hands of the Internal Revenue Service. In this instance, you are referencing incorporation under state law. This does not make you part of the state, nor does it waive first amendment rights. It is simply the process to create a separate legal entity, as opposed to operating as an unincorporated association. In Illinois, there is no begging. If you send the money, you are created. I would be surprised if that isn't the case in all states, but I could certainly be wrong on that part.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Being incorporated does make you a legally separate entity and subject to rights and obligations under state law, and also provides legal protections. However, none of that has any bearing on being tax exempt or a 501(c)(3). That question is a completely separate one.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

If I had to guess, I would say it began in the 1950s when the modern tax system was implemented, though I do not know for certain. Also, I do not know what was done prior, but I do know that it is irrelevant given we have a codified system to deal with in the present. Before 501(c)(3) existed, it could absolutely be said that a church could be tax exempt, but not a 501(c)(3). (Duh, right? Ha!) But as things stand today, a church being tax exempt and a church being a 501(c)(3) entity are one and the same for no other reason than it is the code section defining the exemption.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Freeindeed

I heard that they not only pick up hundreds of people on their buses for church services, but they feed them too.

Pretty awesome!

Yes they feed them. They usually spend about $2500 alone on feeding the bus pick ups.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

You are making a distinction that doesn't exist. Churches are exempt from taxation under current law based on Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. If the church isn't exempt under these rules, they aren't exempt at all. In fact, if you have a church that isn't a 501(c)(3), you probably don't legally have a church. What you are actually referring to is the official recognition of that status, which is a whole process unto itself.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

Again, this is incorrect. Official recognition of 501(c)(3) status is in the hands of the Internal Revenue Service. In this instance, you are referencing incorporation under state law. This does not make you part of the state, nor does it waive first amendment rights. It is simply the process to create a separate legal entity, as opposed to operating as an unincorporated association. In Illinois, there is no begging. If you send the money, you are created. I would be surprised if that isn't the case in all states, but I could certainly be wrong on that part.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Being incorporated does make you a legally separate entity and subject to rights and obligations under state law, and also provides legal protections. However, none of that has any bearing on being tax exempt or a 501(c)(3). That question is a completely separate one.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

If I had to guess, I would say it began in the 1950s when the modern tax system was implemented, though I do not know for certain. Also, I do not know what was done prior, but I do know that it is irrelevant given we have a codified system to deal with in the present. Before 501(c)(3) existed, it could absolutely be said that a church could be tax exempt, but not a 501(c)(3). (Duh, right? Ha!) But as things stand today, a church being tax exempt and a church being a 501(c)(3) entity are one and the same for no other reason than it is the code section defining the exemption.

I’ll reply to this later. Meanwhile you seem to be looking at everything from a viewpoint of an accountant. Part of it is legal. Don’t assume I’m over my head. You may be shorter than you think you are.

[Esaias]

Churches are automatically exempt from taxation and reporting by law. 501c3 status is conferred by the IRS when an organisation (non profit corporation for example) applies to the IRS and is approved. This means donations to the organisation are deductible by the giver on their tax form.

What happens is this:

A couple of people form a non profit corporation they call a "church". This state-created entity with its President, Secretary, Treasurer, Board of Directors, etc then opens a bank account, gets insurance, rents or buys real estate, and applies for 501c3 status. That is what "churches" in America are, for the most part: state created corporations designated as "not for profit" with IRS 501c3 recognition.

A genuine church is outside the scope of regulatory powers by state, local, and federal governments except as those powers relate to any private gathering or free association of people.

Non profit corporations are creations of the state. When you incorporate, you APPLY to the Secretary of State for your state for PERMISSION to operate as a distinct legal "person" (the corporation). The state if it approves then grants Incorporation to the petitioners. Look it up, all corporations are legally recognised as CREATURES OF THE STATE. As such NO corporation thus incorporated can be the Church, since IT was incorporated millennia ago, long before ANY existing civil government. This is why in the US all churches are automatically non taxable and cannot be defined or regulated as churches. This is also why in the 20th century a big move was made to get churches incorporated. All corporations created by the State are legally bound to support "public policy". This is why incorporated churches CANNOT LEGALLY SPEAK ABOUT POLITICS. The 501c3 rules add additional regulations and restrictions.

The non profits everybody calls churches ARE NOT CHURCHES EXCEPT IN NAME ONLY. "The church is the people." Well yes, but the people are not the ABC Church, Incorporated. That's why the people have little to no say so in financial or rule-making or legal matters. Congregational votes are an advisory luxury, unless you're an actual stockholder or on the Board you don't really have a vote.

[Freeindeed]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I absolutely agree. One thing that gets my attention is when the gospel is preached to the poor. It’s not necessarily because I’m such an intelligent, and caring person, but because it is a biblical sign of the true church. That the poor have the gospel preached to them.

It is a no brainer.

I am encouraged to see a church that is reaching out and literally feeding the hungry!

[Freeindeed]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yes they feed them. They usually spend about $2500 alone on feeding the bus pick ups.

I have so much respect for the saints at Life Tabernacle. What a great example for all of us!

I wish there were more Apostolic churches like LT.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Freeindeed

I have so much respect for the saints at Life Tabernacle. What a great example for all of us!

I wish there were more Apostolic churches like LT.

I agree!😇👍

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I absolutely agree. One thing that gets my attention is when the gospel is preached to the poor. It’s not necessarily because I’m such an intelligent, and caring person, but because it is a biblical sign of the true church. That the poor have the gospel preached to them.

It is a no brainer.

While I don't disagree in principle, I believe that this scripture is misinterpreted. I have seen humble wealthy people, and proud street people.
Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, not poor in the pocketbook.😇🙏

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’ll reply to this later. Meanwhile you seem to be looking at everything from a viewpoint of an accountant. Part of it is legal. Don’t assume I’m over my head. You may be shorter than you think you are.

Brother, you must be reading more into what I am saying than I am truly saying because I am speaking *only* as an accountant. You are conflating issues, and all I have done is enumerate government regulations.

• Churches need not be incorporated to be a 501(c)(3).
• Churches that meet the requirements are automatically tax exempt under 501(c)(3) and need not apply for recognition of this status.
• If a church doesn't qualify for tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), it likely isn't a church for federal tax purposes.

From Publication 1828:

"Churches and religious organizations may be legally organized in a variety of ways under state law, such as unincorporated associations, nonprofit corporations, corporations sole and charitable trusts."

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS. Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because this recognition assures church leaders, members and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits. For example, contributors to a church that has been recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions generally are tax-deductible."

"Church. Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; and schools for the preparation of its ministers. The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

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p.s. If my "in over your head" comment offended you in any way, I do apologize. There was no reason to begin my statements with that jab.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I absolutely agree. One thing that gets my attention is when the gospel is preached to the poor. It’s not necessarily because I’m such an intelligent, and caring person, but because it is a biblical sign of the true church. That the poor have the gospel preached to them.

It is a no brainer.

Originally Posted by Ron

While I don't disagree in principle, I believe that this scripture is misinterpreted. I have seen humble wealthy people, and proud street people.
Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, not poor in the pocketbook.����

Maybe I should post the scripture passage, instead of depending on you reading my mind.

Matt.11

[1] And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
[2] Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
[3] And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
[4] Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
[5] The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

The story tells itself. Jesus didn’t respond directly. Instead he gave six signs. The last sign was that the “poor have the gospel preached to them”.

I think it is worth noting that the poor having the gospel preached to them, is in the company of five other miracles.