Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Search For Similiar Threads Using Key Words & Phrases
divine healing, healing, signs and wonders

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 04-18-2013, 11:44 AM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
Apostolic Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 700
Re: The Biblical Basis for the Doctrine of Divine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Well, Larry, you asked, so here it is.......... but first, allow me to lay a foundation, of sorts, for what I am about to write for your consideration of its merits.

Firstly, Paul instructed Timothy, saying, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16). Simply stated, we are to employ the sacred written principles of the Bible to establish the truth of all things.

Secondly, Solomon, writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:20-21), advises - "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell" (Proverbs 23:13-14). Again, simply stated, here we discover God, through the pen of His servant Solomon, advises you and I to inflict corporal punishment (i.e., physical pain) upon our children in an effort to correct a fault in them.

Would God instruct you and I to do such a thing, yet Himself refrain from such action when it involves His own children? Of course not! With this thought in mind then lets examine an example of this action by the Lord in the writings of the New Covenant, and where better to find this than in the writings of Paul:

Referring to one's participation in the sacred symbols of what is commonly called The Lord's Supper, Paul writes - "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (I Corinthians 11:26-30). And so I am compelled to ask you:

Who brings sickness, yea, even death, upon that one who fails to properly discern the bread and the cup, but chooses instead to partake of these sacred symbols unworthily? Surely you do not suggest that Satan would do such a thing, for it should be rather readily acknowledged that he, in fact, takes delight in such an act of unrighteousness, does he not? Indeed, the source for the sickness noted here is, in reality, a direct consequence of an unrighteous deed that results in a "sickness that is unto death" (see I John 5:16).

Indeed, apostle Paul even attributed such a deadly sickness as an act of chastisement which the Lord inflicts, for we find this written in the succeeding passages: "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (I Corinthians 11:32). Simply interpreted, should one partake of the sacred symbols of The Lord's Supper who is unworthy of doing so, then it is the Lord Himself who chastises them for this unrighteous deed (i.e., brings sickness [physical pain] which, if such an act is not repented of, will result in their death).

This is also why James was inspired of God to write to inform that saint who has been "afflicted" (chastened of the Lord) to pray for their own healing, for he was referring to the selfsame thing, that is, physical pain which the Lord has inflicted as a direct consequence of an unrighteous act having been accomplished by the one that is "afflicted." (see James 5:13)

So, my friend, there you have indisputable evidence in the writings of the New Covenant, which tells of the Lord inflicting physical punishment for the purpose of correcting a fault (and remember, Paul's words of I Corinthians were written as admonishment to those who were saved).
Hello my friend, I was just thinking of you when you posted this. Funny how the Lord works. I do not have the time at the moment to respond to this but I will get to it at my first opportunity.

I hope this finds you well and prospering in the Lord. I will write more later.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:56 PM
Livelystone's Avatar
Livelystone Livelystone is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 171
Re: The Biblical Basis for the Doctrine of Divine

Greetings

I have enjoyed reading the responses from both posters on this thread. The words being shared here reveal a lot of insight and time spent with the Lord and with His Holy Word.

I do agree with the assertion that there should be signs and wonders, and it is not because I think signs and wonders are the answer to everything, but when there are not signs and wonders present within a ministry it is a huge red flag as to why not? God's approval on a ministry has always been seen through signs and wonders upon His chosen that is consistent throughout the Bible.

I could not help think how much things have changed for the worse when I saw a sign in front of a church where the pastor was asking readers to pray for his child who had sustained a head injury. It is not that I find fault with someone asking others to pray but in the Bible people went to their pastors to get healed and not the other way around.

Signs and wonders are a result of the Eyes and Ears of the Lord traveling to and from over the earth who upon "the hearing of faith” responds with signs and wonders. However, faith is not how much we believe as much as it is what we believe. Therefore, there may be an individual who loves the Lord with all his heart but because they do not have the truth of the foundational doctrines as listed in Hebrews 6:1–2 written on their heart, in place of the truth within their heart are untruths a.k.a. false doctrines that are lies causing God to turn away and not answer their prayer. It is said that God heard the cries of the Jews in bondage to their Egyptian slave masters, however, God did not respond until Moses was made ready. Then God worked signs and wonders through him to deliver his people out of Egypt.

I do not believe there was anything at fault with the old covenant but because it was weak that it could not cause the Holy Spirit to come upon someone. On the other hand when one goes to the cross the life found in the blood of Jesus Christ sprinkled upon their heart brings forgiveness and imputed righteousness. Combining this with the blessings of Pentecost people receive the Holy Spirit that the old covenant could not provide.

On the other hand one cannot reach the fullness of Christ formed in them without the understanding of the spiritual application of the law in the old covenant. For a start, learning knowledge beyond the milk of the word one needs to follow the laws for determining the truth that appeared 1st in the law given to Moses that were repeated by both Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament albeit with different wording. As I said this is just a start and the same applies to the dietary laws that when understood spiritually are not about whether you can have a BLT sandwich but how to determine clean spiritual food from all the unclean food being dished out from various pulpits and theologians that saying it kindly the sum of them all is teachers who still need to be taught.

I agree that the 2nd covenant is a better covenant as there is no salvation in the blood of bulls and goats. Also there is to consider that under the old covenant there was a “if” clause whereas under the new and better covenant it is a “one way or the other you will” clause. Some may object to this position however the same as in the Old Testament law when through discipline offenders learn righteousness (other than a death sentence) so does God promise to have believers in the next age beaten with stripes based on their knowledge versus their accomplishments. Also there is to consider what happens to those who produce nothing with the gifts that God has given them as prophesied in the parable of the talents.

I am filled with the conviction that God does not change, but because his nature is always to prefer mercy we see times in the Bible where God repents from his decision to pass judgment that is a witness to Him keeping true to the nature and purposes of God, and not because he changed.

There is good reason why Jesus said those who would be called great in his kingdom would be those who learn the truth of the law and teach it to others.(Matt.5:17-19) Compared to this are those who break the law and encourage others to do so will be called least in the kingdom. There is only one kingdom in the mind of our Father and that is His kingdom.

Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

Last edited by Livelystone; 04-18-2013 at 04:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2013, 08:14 AM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
Apostolic Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 700
Re: The Biblical Basis for the Doctrine of Divine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Well, Larry, you asked, so here it is.......... but first, allow me to lay a foundation, of sorts, for what I am about to write for your consideration of its merits.

Firstly, Paul instructed Timothy, saying, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16). Simply stated, we are to employ the sacred written principles of the Bible to establish the truth of all things.

Secondly, Solomon, writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:20-21), advises - "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell" (Proverbs 23:13-14). Again, simply stated, here we discover God, through the pen of His servant Solomon, advises you and I to inflict corporal punishment (i.e., physical pain) upon our children in an effort to correct a fault in them.

Would God instruct you and I to do such a thing, yet Himself refrain from such action when it involves His own children? Of course not! With this thought in mind then lets examine an example of this action by the Lord in the writings of the New Covenant, and where better to find this than in the writings of Paul:

Referring to one's participation in the sacred symbols of what is commonly called The Lord's Supper, Paul writes - "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (I Corinthians 11:26-30). And so I am compelled to ask you:

Who brings sickness, yea, even death, upon that one who fails to properly discern the bread and the cup, but chooses instead to partake of these sacred symbols unworthily? Surely you do not suggest that Satan would do such a thing, for it should be rather readily acknowledged that he, in fact, takes delight in such an act of unrighteousness, does he not? Indeed, the source for the sickness noted here is, in reality, a direct consequence of an unrighteous deed that results in a "sickness that is unto death" (see I John 5:16).

Indeed, apostle Paul even attributed such a deadly sickness as an act of chastisement which the Lord inflicts, for we find this written in the succeeding passages: "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (I Corinthians 11:32). Simply interpreted, should one partake of the sacred symbols of The Lord's Supper who is unworthy of doing so, then it is the Lord Himself who chastises them for this unrighteous deed (i.e., brings sickness [physical pain] which, if such an act is not repented of, will result in their death).

This is also why James was inspired of God to write to inform that saint who has been "afflicted" (chastened of the Lord) to pray for their own healing, for he was referring to the selfsame thing, that is, physical pain which the Lord has inflicted as a direct consequence of an unrighteous act having been accomplished by the one that is "afflicted." (see James 5:13)

So, my friend, there you have indisputable evidence in the writings of the New Covenant, which tells of the Lord inflicting physical punishment for the purpose of correcting a fault (and remember, Paul's words of I Corinthians were written as admonishment to those who were saved).
Sorry to be so long in responding. I want to begin by saying that while we do not agree, I appreciate the grace and patience with which you write. I can learn from that. I only hope I can bring some of that same attitude to the discussion.

First of all, when I spank my child on her bottom with the paddle, that pain lasts maybe 30 seconds, if even that. There is no injury, no sickness, no disease associated with that, and certainly no death.

You rightly point out that “Paul instructed Timothy, saying, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16). Simply stated, we are to employ the sacred written principles of the Bible to establish the truth of all things.”

I agree with your last statement implicitly. However, from this same passage I learn that it is God's Word that is given for reproof, correction, and instruction. Paul does not say say afflictions or sicknesses or disease are used. I believe that to be an imposition upon the Scriptures, rooted more in our traditions than we realize.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, the "chastisement for our well being was on him" (Isaiah 53:5). He was chastised (Hebrew "musr" = מוּסַ֤ר = Strong's H4148) for our well being (Hebrew "shlum-nu" = שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ = Strong's H7965 = "peace" = more commonly pronounced "shalom"). That is in the atonement, so in my understanding, God is no longer even using the "pain" of chastisement (i.e. corresponding to corporal discipline) against us. And what would we need that for, if we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who is our teacher and comforter, empowering us to do good, and the Word of God, as seen above? (I ask your indulgence for my use of “Strong’s again).

Speaking of the Holy Spirit, did Jesus say, in John 14, 15, 16, "and I will send you another chastiser, the spirit of pain. He will bring to your remembrance anything you have done wrong, tormenting you with sickness, suffering, and even death."? Of course, I am being facetious here not sarcastic. Jesus is our healer, His Spirit is our Comforter.

Do you have children of your own? Probably very wonderful children, I am sure. You would never suggest inflicting one of your own children with a disease like cancer, injure them by breaking a bone, or kill them, as discipline to "teach" them something? In my view, that is what we directly implying when we interpret 1 Cor 11:26-30, that it is God who causes people to be weak and sick and die.

I believe that there is a difference between Solomon's instruction in several places in the book of Proverbs to discipline a child with the rod, and that of our adversary, the devil, who comes to "steal, kill, and destroy" (John 10:10)

You asked me:
“Who brings sickness, yea, even death, upon that one who fails to properly discern the bread and the cup, but chooses instead to partake of these sacred symbols unworthily? Surely you do not suggest that Satan would do such a thing...”

I believe that as a result of healing being in the atonement and because Jesus paid the price in his body, that if we fail recognize this, then yes, Satan can take advantage of that, and I can end up weak, sick, or dead.

I used to feel as if Jehovah God was just standing up there, on yonder Mt. Olympus, watching to see if any of his children slip up while partaking of communion, and then if we do, pour out his wrath and judgment on such miscreants, inflicting them with weakness, sickness, or death for committing such a "sin." When I came to 2 Cor 5:19, "how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their sins against them"? I came at last to the understanding that not only our sins were provided for in the atonement, but much, much more.

My understanding of 1 Cor 11:32, is a little different. If we are disciplined (Greek "paideuo" which means to train up a child, a verb form from the root word for "boy" or "little child") by the Lord, then we will not be down-judged ("katakrino") with the world. The word in 1 Cor 11:29, that we should "discriminate/discern" the body of the Lord is "diakrino" ("through-judge"). That is the same word used again in 1 Cor 11:31, where we are told that we should "diakrino" (i.e. "discriminate/discern") so that we will not be "judged" ("krino"). The next word in verse 32 is "krino" again, "being judged," referring to that fact that we have already been judged (obviously, since Jesus was judged in our place), so that we will not be "down-judged" with the world.

That's a really important point that you bring up. I look back to verse 29. The Greek word there is "krima" = "judgment" or "decision" or "sentence" in legal sense, like when a judge says, "this is my judgment." The phrase is "krima heauto" = "judgment to-himself (dative case)." It happens when we do not "dia-krino" (literally "through-judge") = "discern" the body, in that same v.29.

So it explicitly says that it is my "judgment," not God’s, which I bring upon myself.
You can find "krima" in Matt 23:14, Mark 7:2, 12:40, Luke 20:47, 23:40, 24:20, John 9:39, Acts 24:25, Rom 2:2, :3, 3:8, 5:16, 11:33, 13:2, 1 Cor 6:7, 11:29, :34, Gal 5:10, 1 Tim 3:6, 5:12, Heb 6:2, James 3:1, 1 Pet 4:17, 2 Pet 2:3, Jude 1:4, Rev 17:1, 18:20, 20:4.

"Heauto" is just a form of "auto" which means "self" both in Greek and as a common English prefix ("automatic," "autonomous," "autobiography," "autograph," etc.)

So, I said all that to say that we should “discern the body” or understand the nature of the atonement, so that we do not end up suffering the consequences that the world does for not discerning the body.

James 5:13, does not mention sickness, and doesn't mention being "chastened of the Lord." The next verse, which does mention sickness, and the following ones, tell the sick person to go to the elders for a sure remedy.

Taking a step back, I can identify with you completely, because I used to believe as you do, up until only about ten years ago.

Now it's like, "What don't you understand about 'paid for all sins'?" And if he paid for all my sins, then what basis does God have punishing us now anyway, especially by inflicting us with sickness, disease, suffering, pain, and death, even before you take into account healing in the atonement?

I doubt I have done a very good job in responding. Hopefully at least you can better understand where I am coming from in some of my statements.
When I came to see these things in Scripture, it revolutionized our lives and our ministry.

When my oldest daughter had to have surgery to remove a tumor from inside her ear canal, the doctor's had to remove three of the five bones necessary for hearing, as well as her eardrum. This would mean that neither type of hearing aid would work and she would be totally deaf in that ear.

Her mother and I had just begun our journey on this path and knew very little. We took what we were learning and put it to "practice." We stood in faith and "spoke to the mountain," as it were. She is now 19 and studying at a Texas college and has only a 10% hearing loss in that ear.

Do we see perfect results? No. Do we experience total failure often? Yes! But we have learned that the Word works! I can't sit here and pretend I have it all worked out. But I have an understanding of the Scriptures and the experience of seeing it in action, that will not allow me to accept what I once believed.

Someone once said that a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. That's true as far as it goes. However, I believe that it is when our experiences are rooted and grounded in the truth of God's Word, we become a force to be reckoned with in the spiritual realm.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-19-2013, 02:36 PM
Lafon's Avatar
Lafon Lafon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,258
Re: The Biblical Basis for the Doctrine of Divine

Larry, before responding to your latest posting I would like to learn of your understanding of the words of Revelation 3:19 -

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

How does one know when they have been, or are being 'rebuked' of God?

How does one know when they have been, or are being 'chastened' by God?

In the event one has been 'rebuked' and 'chastened' of the Lord (apparently because of some type of unrighteousness which they are guilty of having committed), then through what 'means' does God cause that one to be made aware of it (i.e., supposing that the unrighteous act is one the offender is unaware of having committed), so that they might recognize their error, after which repentance can take place?

Please understand that I am not speaking of the Spirit 'checking' us when we commit a sinful deed, either prior to the act in an effort to assist us to recognize that the act we are about to commit is wrong, or even after we have done a sinful deed that we were unaware of its wickedness at the time it was committed, so that we can recognize our need to repent. I am speaking strictly of ignorant acts of omission (i.e., things we should have done but because of that inherent ignorance we're all born with, we simply don't recognize what we do as being evil).

Warmest Regards,
Lafon
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2013, 03:27 PM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
Apostolic Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 700
Re: The Biblical Basis for the Doctrine of Divine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Larry, before responding to your latest posting I would like to learn of your understanding of the words of Revelation 3:19 -

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

How does one know when they have been, or are being 'rebuked' of God?

How does one know when they have been, or are being 'chastened' by God?

In the event one has been 'rebuked' and 'chastened' of the Lord (apparently because of some type of unrighteousness which they are guilty of having committed), then through what 'means' does God cause that one to be made aware of it (i.e., supposing that the unrighteous act is one the offender is unaware of having committed), so that they might recognize their error, after which repentance can take place?

Please understand that I am not speaking of the Spirit 'checking' us when we commit a sinful deed, either prior to the act in an effort to assist us to recognize that the act we are about to commit is wrong, or even after we have done a sinful deed that we were unaware of its wickedness at the time it was committed, so that we can recognize our need to repent. I am speaking strictly of ignorant acts of omission (i.e., things we should have done but because of that inherent ignorance we're all born with, we simply don't recognize what we do as being evil).

Warmest Regards,
Lafon
Blessings and greetings, my friend.
Your question is a good one and must be dealt with as it goes to the heart of our discussion. We have actually touched on it indirectly already.

The Greek words translated "rebuke" and "chasten," are most instructive:

Rebuke
G1651 ἐλέγχω elegcho (el-eng'-kho) v.
1. to confute, admonish
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove

Chasten
G3811 παιδεύω paideuo (pai-dyoo'-o) v.
1. to train up a child, i.e. educate
2. (by implication) discipline (by punishment)
[from G3816]
KJV: chasten(-ise), instruct, learn, teach
(I am looking for some better software so I can use something other than Strong's )

I see it as closely related to the work of the Holy Spirit you reference. However, I assume you mean the more obvious cases of persistent resistance to that "check" or call to repentance. In that case, it seems to me that the Lord, "lifts" His hedge of protection. The result would be that we would then be open to the enemy. Sort of a situation where we are not so much punished for our sins as by them.

I have experienced a form of what you speak of, when the blessing of God was apparently absent from my life and all forms of misery took place. Only later through the Word or a message preached, did I realize my sin and repent.

I understand this to be more along the lines of God's permitting, rather than causing. Sort of like a smoker who gets lung cancer. Did God send the cancer as punishment or was it simply a natural and logical consequence of walking in sin? i have an accident because I am not experiencing the blessing and protection of God. God didn't cause the wreck to get my attention. I just wasn't under the hedge. I don't know if I am making sense here.

I go back to our previous verse, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" The word "reproof" here is the same as "rebuke' in Revelation. the word for "correction" indicates rectification and reformation.

Again, I come back to the assertion that it is the Word and the Holy Spirit that God uses to correct us. Our persistent refusal to submit to or recognize that correction removes the hedge and then the powers of darkness are free to move in. The results are things that steal, kill and destroy, rather than life and blessing.

Someone once said to me that my ignorance of the Word of God was no excuse. the results would be the same. Walk in sin and the hedge comes down. Natural and logical consequences. It took me years to understand that simple point and I experienced the results of my rebellion.

That's probably clear as mud. But, I hope it helps somewhat. Until next time...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Biblical Facts on Divine Healing larrylyates Deep Waters 100 04-14-2013 07:35 PM
The Basis For Following Jesus Ron Deep Waters 16 03-27-2007 08:39 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by coksiw
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.