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  #61  
Old 04-27-2021, 07:52 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
That “we” in John 14:23 is a challenge.
He did say in John 16:25 that He was speaking things in figurative language.
What is is factual is that the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost to indwell the disciples. Paul used language like “Christ in you”(Rom 8:10) as well.

I think “we” there means the Holy Spirit and Christ as in “Christ in you”. It is figurative to emphasize the new dimension in which the Spirit will come to them: in the name of Jesus, under a new covenant in Christ.
The "we" in verse 23 is speaking of God in Christ, Christ in us, thus Father and Son in us as the one Comforter. God's divine Spirit is mingled with the human spirit of the man Christ Jesus, and that union indwells the believer.
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  #62  
Old 04-27-2021, 07:59 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I am recognizing that. "We" is plural. Can you have the Holy Spirit without "Christ in you"? No, you need the "we", you need to be in Christ to have the Spirit. The Spirit comes in his name. Do you know that Christ spoke figuratively too? I gave you a verse that says at the end of that discourse that he used figurative language.

You know that people had issues with him speaking like that before?


* The figurative language to teach a spiritual truth:

[Jhn 6:53-57, 60, 63 KJV] 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ...

* People's head spinning:

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? ...

* Jesus explaining the figurative language by going factual:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
(I was fried yesterday, let me continue with this)

How do we know that "we" is figurative? When Jesus talks about the Father, he is talking as a man. He prays to the Father, he is sent by the Father, etc.... Therefore, when he says "we" referring to him and the Father, he is talking as a man.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

How can Jesus as man can come to every one on this planet that keeps his word? It is factually impossible, therefore this must be figurative language. More, what about "make our home"? Isn't that figurative language already? It is hard to speak without figurative language.

When you believe in Jesus and embrace him, you receive the Holy Spirit:
John 7:38-39 (NKJV) 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive...

Again, you cannot have the Holy Spirit without Jesus. You cannot have the Father without the Son. If you keep the words of the Son, you will have the Father and the Son. If you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood (Jhn 6:53-57, making himself like the manna in the spiritual sense, meaning he came from heaven with words of life) you can't have the Father. Basically, if you believe in Jesus and keep his words, you are in the covenant in Christ and the Spirit of God comes and stays with you, in his Name.

That's a way that can be explained within the Oneness theology harmonizing it with the rest of the Scripture. I do not need to go Binitarian or Trinitarian to explain it. Doing so it would be departing from the One God doctrine and going against the rest of the Scripture.

Last edited by coksiw; 04-27-2021 at 08:16 AM.
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  #63  
Old 04-27-2021, 08:08 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Too bad for you, because I am not a Trinitarian.

Pressing-On, I hope you are noticing how your continued mischaracterization of my beliefs and of me as a believer in Christ Jesus, coupled with your refusal to disavow them, is now negatively affecting another member of this forum's perception of me, causing him to make false assumptions.
Not too bad for me. It would be too bad for you if you are. I believe you, you’re not a trinitarian, yet did you come from that background. I say that because your posts sure seems like you have.
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Old 04-27-2021, 08:16 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Hey, man. If you want to continue to display your ignorance and show you aren't interested in the slightest in learning anything, you go right on ahead.

Just remember what pride goes before. And don't say I didn't warn you.
I’m ignorant because I pointed out the fundamental differences between a trinitarian and a oneness believer? With all due respect, thats not ignorance. It’s ignorant to believe that were all one big church family, i.e Trinitarians, Baptists, Methodist, Catholics. I’ve talked with trinitarian converts and I’m sure you have as well, tell me that they’ve told you there wasn’t a difference from their trinitarian relationship to an apostolic one?
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  #65  
Old 04-27-2021, 08:20 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
He said "we' as in plural. Both of them would make their abode with us. If it would have been only one person, Jesus would have said that.
Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


If we believe God the Son.
In this scripture, did God forsake himself?
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  #66  
Old 04-27-2021, 08:55 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


If we believe God the Son.
In this scripture, did God forsake himself?
Good question. Both Trinitarians and the Modalist branch of Oneness have God forsaking himself.
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  #67  
Old 04-27-2021, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


If we believe God the Son.
In this scripture, did God forsake himself?
Because Jesus is quoting Psalm 22:1, which are also King David’s words, as a human, he can emotionally feel pain and suffering.

That would cause us to look at the level of love He had for us - while we were yet sinners, He died for us.

We owe Him our very lives.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:33 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
I’m ignorant because I pointed out the fundamental differences between a trinitarian and a oneness believer? With all due respect, thats not ignorance. It’s ignorant to believe that were all one big church family, i.e Trinitarians, Baptists, Methodist, Catholics. I’ve talked with trinitarian converts and I’m sure you have as well, tell me that they’ve told you there wasn’t a difference from their trinitarian relationship to an apostolic one?
At one time he said that he was neither oneness nor Trinitarian. I don’t know what that means, but if you claim not to subscribe to the Oneness view, I am going to have a huge problem with that - especially on an Apostolic Forum.
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  #69  
Old 04-27-2021, 11:41 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
(I was fried yesterday, let me continue with this)

How do we know that "we" is figurative? When Jesus talks about the Father, he is talking as a man. He prays to the Father, he is sent by the Father, etc.... Therefore, when he says "we" referring to him and the Father, he is talking as a man.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

How can Jesus as man can come to every one on this planet that keeps his word? It is factually impossible, therefore this must be figurative language. More, what about "make our home"? Isn't that figurative language already? It is hard to speak without figurative language.

When you believe in Jesus and embrace him, you receive the Holy Spirit:
John 7:38-39 (NKJV) 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive...

Again, you cannot have the Holy Spirit without Jesus. You cannot have the Father without the Son. If you keep the words of the Son, you will have the Father and the Son. If you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood (Jhn 6:53-57, making himself like the manna in the spiritual sense, meaning he came from heaven with words of life) you can't have the Father. Basically, if you believe in Jesus and keep his words, you are in the covenant in Christ and the Spirit of God comes and stays with you, in his Name.

That's a way that can be explained within the Oneness theology harmonizing it with the rest of the Scripture. I do not need to go Binitarian or Trinitarian to explain it. Doing so it would be departing from the One God doctrine and going against the rest of the Scripture.


For me, when Jesus says We, He is showing how He is both God and man (God manifest in flesh) to His listeners, which were primarily Jewish. They were the ones who needed to understand that the prophecies were now taking place. They were the ones that needed to understand the Kinsman Reedeemer, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Comforter to come. His flesh would be the sacrifice, His Spirit would do the indwelling, as His flesh couldn’t possibly indwell us.
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  #70  
Old 04-27-2021, 11:48 AM
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Re: The Son Is Gods Self 1 Hr. Video

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
There is One God, the Father.

And Thomas said to Jesus "my Lord and my God".

And Paul said "God was manifest in the flesh".

And John said "and the Word was God... and became flesh, and dwelt among us."

So then the one God - the Father - was manifest in the flesh. The Word was that one God (the Father) and became flesh. Thomas called Jesus his God (the Father) as well as his Lord.

If "there is one God, the Father" means Jesus is not God, then same verse that says "and one Lord, Jesus Christ" must mean God is not Lord. Is God "Lord"?

According to Paul:

Romans 10:9-13 KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Believe and confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus... Because whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Which is a quote from this:

Joel 2:32 KJV
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The word "Lord" in that verse is YHVH (Jehovah), none other than God.

So confess the Lord Jesus because whoever calls on Jehovah's name will be saved. Obviously, one calls upon the name of Jehovah (the LORD, ie God) by believing and confessing the Lord Jesus. Paul has not only identified the Lord as Jehovah, but as Jesus.

Paul preached:

Acts 17:24 KJV
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Here he explicitly calls God "Lord".

Remember you said "God is a spirit"? Paul spoke of the spirit:

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

He then claimed the Lord is that spirit:

2 Corinthians 3:15-17 KJV
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

He also said there is ONE spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One God, One Lord (even though he identifies both God and Jesus as Lord), and One Spirit (even though he identified the Lord as that Spirit).

In many places Paul identifies the God of the Scripture (Jehovah) as "Lord". So the only way Paul can assert unto us there is ONE Lord (Jesus Christ), and yet recognize God as Lord, and be consistent, is for him to recognise that Jesus is somehow in fact God (while still recognizing that He is also the Son of God). And this is consistent with other statements of his where he takes Scripture that speaks of Jehovah God and applies it Christ, and even bluntly asserts Christ is God.

Okay, discussion is over. Lol!

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