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  #11  
Old 05-03-2021, 07:44 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
This was their disadvantage.....

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

That's not what we are talking about. Did you read what I posted?
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2021, 07:53 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)
Old Testament saints were not born again of the Spirit because the Spirit had not been given as a free gift to whoever believeth on Jesus. That is Bible. Certainly, the God who is Spirit aided people in the Old Testament, but the abiding precense of the Spirt IN them was not a reality at that point.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2021, 07:56 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Does the NT teach this concept ?
The NT is vague about the role of the Spirit directly on the soul to overcome sin in the Old Testament, beside telling us the role through the prophets.

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Yes, we have a better covenant.
Yes we do, I agree. However, I do not see a difference regarding the personal assistance of the Spirit to overcome sin.

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Does God give more grace now than then ?
We have always be saved by grace through faith, since Adam.

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What about during the other dispensations ?
I do not believe in dispensations as dispensationalist do. I do believe that individuals have always been saved by grace through faith, looking at Christ in the future for their remission of sins, or looking at Christ in the past for the same.
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2021, 07:59 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Old Testament saints were not born again of the Spirit because the Spirit had not been given as a free gift to whoever believeth on Jesus. That is Bible. Certainly, the God who is Spirit aided people in the Old Testament, but the abiding precense of the Spirt IN them was not a reality at that point.
I went thoroughly through the Bible to prove that point wrong, and I also gave an explanation of that verse in harmony with the rest of the Old Testament and the Gospel of Luke 1 and 2.

EDIT: by the way, regarding this "who is Spirit aided people in the Old Testament", the teachers I posted believe that there was no aid whatsoever. They were totally on their own, like people without Christ today do good, but if they start practicing sin then, there is no chance. Basically, the OT saints didn't have the chance to repent, and overcome practicing sin or something. So, what you believe is already different than what they believe already.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-03-2021 at 08:15 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:00 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Teachers from the UPCI, e.g. David Bernard, Raymond Woodward, teach so.
The Spirit coming upon people to empower them for a task is quite different than the Spirit abiding IN someone whose sins have been purged by faith in Christ and his shed blood. New Testament saints are indeed PERFECT in the eyes of God while Old Testament saints could never be.
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:01 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I went thoroughly through the Bible to prove that point wrong, and I also gave an explanation of that verse in harmony with the rest of the Old Testament and the Gospel of Luke 1 and 2.
And I refuted your thesis with one verse. Unknowingly, you are cheapening the blood of Christ and its significance.
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  #17  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:03 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
The Spirit coming upon people to empower them for a task is quite different than the Spirit abiding IN someone whose sins have been purged by faith in Christ and his shed blood. New Testament saints are indeed PERFECT in the eyes of God while Old Testament saints could never be.
Yes, that makes the New Covenant a better covenant, yet it is regarding redemption.

The rest of your post was addressed already in my original long posts.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:05 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
And I refuted your thesis with one verse. Unknowingly, you are cheapening the blood of Christ and its significance.
I don't think I am. The blood of the Lamb is for our redemption, and Christ as King is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God in the Spirit in the New Covenant. The point of my posts is the role of the Spirit to walk in righteousness and holiness through the ages. Not in the lines of what you are trying to say.
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:06 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:08 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)
Could you please harmonize that with Bible with the rest of the Spirit giving and infilling in the OT? Could you please present an alternate explanation to everything I posted?
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