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  #21  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:13 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Could you please harmonize that with Bible with the rest of the Spirit giving and infilling in the OT? Could you please present an alternate explanation to everything I posted?
Your view's basic flaw is that it fails to distinguish the New Testament experience of regeneration by the Spirit from Old Testament interventions and anointings by the Holy Spirit. Nobody denies the dynamic intervention of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. The nature of that intervention is what is being disputed.
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:16 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Your view's basic flaw is that it fails to distinguish the New Testament experience of regeneration by the Spirit from Old Testament interventions and anointings by the Holy Spirit. Nobody denies the dynamic intervention of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. The nature of that intervention is what is being disputed.
Yes, in my last post, I presented where the different is, which I said it is the purpose and meaning, which I call a new "dimension".

Last edited by coksiw; 05-03-2021 at 08:19 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:25 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Yes, in my last post, I presented where the different is, which I said it is the purpose and meaning, which I call a new "dimension".
But it was not universal or available as a free gift to whosoever will based on the blood of Christ. John 7 is clearly describing something unique that would not be available until Jesus was glorified. The epistles are loaded with doctrine that distinguishes this experience from anything occurring in the Old Testament. To say there is no significant difference is to completely miss the whole point of Calvary and the new birth.
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:31 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
But it was not universal or available as a free gift to whosoever will based on the blood of Christ. John 7 is clearly describing something unique that would not be available until Jesus was glorified. The epistles are loaded with doctrine that distinguishes this experience from anything occurring in the Old Testament. To say there is no significant difference is to completely miss the whole point of Calvary and the new birth.
"universal or available as a free gift" so the OT saints that got it deserved it?

If you can't overcome sin unless the Spirit leads you, how is it that the Bible itself testifies that certain people were righteous before the Lord? How could they walk like that? How could people even repent and stay? How could the overcome after been practicing sin?


If their experience regarding their attempt to walk in righteousness and holiness are "weaker" than ours, then we should see saints in our Churches with a lot more righteousness and holiness than Abraham, Sarah, Enoch, Noah, David, etc...

Also, if that it is true, then the relevance for us of their narrative and poetry in those areas are questionable because our experience is different and therefore, the expectation both ways is different.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-03-2021 at 08:54 AM.
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:45 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
"universal or available as a free gift" so the OT saints that got it deserved it?

No Old Testament saint got it, ever.

If you can't overcome sin unless the Spirit leads you, how is it that the Bible itself testifies that certain people were righteous before the Lord? How could they walk like that? How could people even repent and stay? How could the overcome after been practicing sin?

There are hardly any references to anyone in the OT depending on the Spirit's power to help them overcome sin.


If their experience regarding their attempt to walk in righteousness and holiness are "weaker" than ours, then we should see saints in our Churches with a lot more righteousness and holiness than Abraham, Sarah, Enoch, Noah, David, etc...

By God's estimation, the average NT saint does have something those men did not have.

Also, if that it is true, then the relevance for of of their narrative and poetry in those areas are questionable because our experience is different and therefore, the expectation both ways is different.

I think you are reading too much into the things they said.

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  #26  
Old 05-03-2021, 08:56 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Everything you said was refuted earlier in my posts or you failed to provide Bible to prove it.
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  #27  
Old 05-03-2021, 09:35 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Some other interesting passages:

John 6:43-45 (NKJV) 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

The audience of this text is the people of Israel. Those that "heard and learned from the Father" would have recognized the work of Jesus.


Regarding John 7:38-39, another aspect of it is that this new power will allow believers to proclaim the gospel of the risen Christ and the forgiveness of sins based upon His death and resurrection. This, of course, was not possible before He died and rose again.

While the Apostle Paul speaks of the “New Covenant” as one that consists of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, he never says that those who lived under the Old Covenant lacked the Holy Spirit. Under the New Covenant the Holy Spirit works in a greater way in the hearts and lives of believers. The Holy Spirit testifies to the forgiveness that is available in Jesus Christ. He also provides power to the believer to proclaim the message of Jesus. None of this was available during the era of the Old Covenant. (quote from blb.org)
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2021, 10:17 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Some other interesting passages:

John 6:43-45 (NKJV) 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

The audience of this text is the people of Israel. Those that "heard and learned from the Father" would have recognized the work of Jesus.


Regarding John 7:38-39, another aspect of it is that this new power will allow believers to proclaim the gospel of the risen Christ and the forgiveness of sins based upon His death and resurrection. This, of course, was not possible before He died and rose again.

While the Apostle Paul speaks of the “New Covenant” as one that consists of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, he never says that those who lived under the Old Covenant lacked the Holy Spirit. Under the New Covenant the Holy Spirit works in a greater way in the hearts and lives of believers. The Holy Spirit testifies to the forgiveness that is available in Jesus Christ. He also provides power to the believer to proclaim the message of Jesus. None of this was available during the era of the Old Covenant. (quote from blb.org)
In John 4, Jesus said the promised Spirit would impart eternal life. In John 3 he had already said it would bring a new birth. In John 7, it is said that the Spirit that would bring a new birth and eternal life was not yet given.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2021, 10:17 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Everything you said was refuted earlier in my posts or you failed to provide Bible to prove it.
You are the refuted one.
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2021, 10:36 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
In John 4, Jesus said the promised Spirit would impart eternal life. In John 3 he had already said it would bring a new birth. In John 7, it is said that the Spirit that would bring a new birth and eternal life was not yet given.
Where do you put the Old Testament saints regarding resurrection? They do not inherit eternal life in Christ?
Luke 13:28-29 (NKJV) 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

How can you harmonize with Biblical evidences what you said with the OT experience and end result? Please make sure you use plausible explanations from the Bible, and thoroughly, and not speculative explanations echoing some UPCI teachers position. I am opened to be proven wrong.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-03-2021 at 11:06 AM.
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