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  #91  
Old 05-12-2021, 11:46 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
They aren't being fulfilled "as something different from the nation of Israel". The new covenant was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel.
OK, even with that perspective, how exactly you see the fulfillment? God talks like a change was coming regarding the role of the Spirit. If it is a change, there must be something that wasn't there before or was different, and now it is.

When I look at the end results comparing the OT and the NT, I see a different in what I mentioned before: the Levites ministry of teaching the Law now actively done by the Lord and his Spirit in the ministry gifts and the spiritual gifts local to the assemblies (and the individuals) as the body of Christ.

Now the verse I posted last in my previous post, is my next research.
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:01 PM
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
OK, even with that perspective, how exactly you see the fulfillment? God talks like a change was coming regarding the role of the Spirit. If it is a change, there must be something that wasn't there before or was different, and now it is.

When I look at the end results comparing the OT and the NT, I see a different in what I mentioned before: the Levites ministry of teaching the Law now actively done by the Lord and his Spirit in the ministry gifts and the spiritual gifts local to the assemblies (and the individuals) as the body of Christ.

Now the verse I posted last in my previous post, is my next research.
I believe this addresses the issue:

Hebrews 7:11-19 KJV
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. [15] And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, [16] Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17] For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And here:

2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

And again:

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And again:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
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Last edited by Esaias; 05-12-2021 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:06 PM
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Another thing:

You mentioned the role of the priests in teaching the law of God. Under the new covenant we have this:

Hebrews 8:8-12 KJV
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

No more Levitical teaching ministry, instead each member of the covenant would know God personally. Which hearkens back to this:

John 6:45 KJV
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Which in turn reflects this:

Hebrews 8:10 KJV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:12 PM
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Currently this is the best thread on AFF at the moment...
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:06 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Esaias,

I'm wondering if the word "law" in "I will put My laws in their minds, and write it on their hearts" refers to the forgiveness of sin (redemption) part, not the righteousness part of the law that we should walk in them. The context of Hebrew quoting that verse is about making people perfect by the redemptive work of the Cross. If you believe in Christ, you obtain redemption.

Then, this is the "laws" written in our hearts. The law of the faith in Christ:
Romans 10:8-10 (NKJV) “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
As long as you keep this law of faith, and you abide in Christ, in the faith, you are in the covenant.

Then, the No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, refers to God being revealed in the flesh, basically Christ. Instead of people trying to picture how God is through the revealed Word (commandments, statutes, testimonies, etc...), you will be able to know Him through Christ.
I'm still making sense of why this is here at the end of the prophecy.

Support verse:
John 14:7-9 (NKJV) 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;



Regarding the passages in Eze, check this out:

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within [e]them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

The putting of a new heart is not involuntary, or to all the people of God, but for those that repent, the remnant. So it is an assistance of God to those that repent to be able to show fruit of repentance.

I wonder if that was fulfilled with Nehemiah and Ezra. The "within you" in 36 is the house of Israel as a whole, so it could be translated as "among you all". I can see those prophecies having a fuller fulfillment in the NT, but still.

Nehemiah 8:7-9 (NKJV) 7 Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, helped the people to understand the Law; and the people stood in their place. 8 So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading.
9 And Nehemiah, who was the governor, Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn nor weep.” For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law.


I'm still working through it... It is hard when you come to the Scriptures with a preconceived idea of what it means, and then you have to be honest with yourself and make an effort to harmonize it with everything else and not ignore observations.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-12-2021 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:45 PM
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Esaias,

I'm wondering if the word "law" in "I will put My laws in their minds, and write it on their hearts" refers to the forgiveness of sin (redemption) part, not the righteousness part of the law that we should walk in them. The context of Hebrew quoting that verse is about making people perfect by the redemptive work of the Cross. If you believe in Christ, you obtain redemption.

Then, this is the "laws" written in our hearts. The law of the faith in Christ:
Romans 10:8-10 (NKJV) “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
As long as you keep this law of faith, and you abide in Christ, in the faith, you are in the covenant.

Then, the No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, refers to God being revealed in the flesh, basically Christ. Instead of people trying to picture how God is through the revealed Word (commandments, statutes, testimonies, etc...), you will be able to know Him through Christ.
I'm still making sense of why this is here at the end of the prophecy.

Support verse:
John 14:7-9 (NKJV) 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;



Regarding the passages in Eze, check this out:

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within [e]them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

The putting of a new heart is not involuntary, or to all the people of God, but for those that repent, the remnant. So it is an assistance of God to those that repent to be able to show fruit of repentance.

I wonder if that was fulfilled with Nehemiah and Ezra. The "within you" in 36 is the house of Israel as a whole, so it could be translated as "among you all". I can see those prophecies having a fuller fulfillment in the NT, but still.

Nehemiah 8:7-9 (NKJV) 7 Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, helped the people to understand the Law; and the people stood in their place. 8 So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading.
9 And Nehemiah, who was the governor, Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn nor weep.” For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law.


I'm still working through it... It is hard when you come to the Scriptures with a preconceived idea of what it means, and then you have to be honest with yourself and make an effort to harmonize it with everything else and not ignore observations.
God has His laws, His commandments. He gave them to Israel at Sinai but for the most part it just went into the people's ears and not their hearts. So He promised to put His laws and commandments into their hearts under the new covenant by His Spirit, thus producing actual obedience:

Romans 8:1-9 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The law that is written in the heart is not a different set of commandments. It is God's law, written in the heart instead of stone tablets or papyrus. It isn't the laws that changed, but their location:

Romans 2:13-15 KJV
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The new heart it a synergism between God and His people. For example, it is the work of God:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 KJV
And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Yet it is also the work of the people:

Ezekiel 18:31 KJV
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The old covenant did not produce obedience, it did not produce a people who reflected the nature and character of God. The new covenant is designed to remedy that through Christ:

Romans 6:1-14 KJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
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Old 05-12-2021, 11:52 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
God has His laws, His commandments. He gave them to Israel at Sinai but for the most part it just went into the people's ears and not their hearts. So He promised to put His laws and commandments into their hearts under the new covenant by His Spirit, thus producing actual obedience:

Romans 8:1-9 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The law that is written in the heart is not a different set of commandments. It is God's law, written in the heart instead of stone tablets or papyrus. It isn't the laws that changed, but their location:

Romans 2:13-15 KJV
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The new heart it a synergism between God and His people. For example, it is the work of God:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 KJV
And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Yet it is also the work of the people:

Ezekiel 18:31 KJV
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The old covenant did not produce obedience, it did not produce a people who reflected the nature and character of God. The new covenant is designed to remedy that through Christ:

Romans 6:1-14 KJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


There are some great verses in all of this.
I see definitely that language like "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart", "new heart" and "new spirit", or "create in me a clean heart... renew a steadfast spirit within me", was already in the OT, referring to the change that comes with true repentance.

I see a similar language in Paul, e.g. "new man", "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands", etc...

You said:
Quote:
"The old covenant did not produce obedience"
I'm not sure that's the point. The Old Covenant showed us that we can't have the blessing by not committing sin, because we all have sin. Even if you are holy and perfect now, you can point to a time in the past when you broke the commandments. That's why the New one came, to give us the promises by grace, as long as you believe, and then you don't practice sin. Even after you believe, perfecting holiness is a process. Sanctification is a process. Can anybody say that since they became Christians they haven't sin again?

The whole thing about the Law not making us perfect is about the fact that it was impossible for us to obtain the blessing of the Law by the merits of its obedience. Therefore, we needed Christ, to make us perfect by his blood, and in Christ, obtain the promise of life by faith.

Let's go now to Hebrews 8 and the "put in their mind" and "write in the heart" part.

The Old Covenant was like this:
Romans 10:5 (NKJV) 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

But nobody can achieve the blessing by the law, because all sinned. Therefore, Christ came, and the covenant is like this:

Romans 10:6-10 (NKJV) 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This is the issue. In every passage where the word "law" is present, we need to figure out by the context what exactly is referring to: an aspect of the law? a part of the law? the whole law? The Pentateuch is pretty big. It is not only "thou shalt not", but also "If you sin, ...", "if you do everything here you will be blessed, but if you fail, you ..."


Hebrews 8:7-12 (NKJV) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

So why they didn't continue in the covenant? because they disobeyed, not only regarding sin, but also in everything else they were supposed to do. The entire thing. They even went into idolatry.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

What Laws exactly? Can we infer by the context? Why the mind and heart thing? Don't we see righteous people within Israel? the prophets? David? etc... It was possible.
When the author of Hebrews expands on the topic on Chapter 9, is about the redemptive work of the Cross.

Hebrews 9:15 (NKJV) 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

And he keeps going:

Hebrews 10:9-10 (NKJV) He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And then he brings the verse again, but look at the context:

Hebrews 10:16-24 (NKJV) 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,


In the whole two chapters, you don't see any relationship between "My laws into their hearts, and in their minds" with the Spirit guiding us to not commit sin. That was already available in the OT.

I think "Laws" here refers to the entire thing, the knowledge of sin and righteousness, and also the way to obtain redemption and the promises by faith, because if you don't know you have sin, you don't understand the need for redemption and the need for the promises to Abraham being received by faith. The Laws in is our hearts because with the heart you believe for salvation, and as long as you live by faith in Christ, you stay in the New Covenant. That's the only way I can reconcile this.


Regarding the "Know the LORD",

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

I believe is talking about that Levites used to do, as you said: 2Ki 17:27-28, 2Ch 30:22. I believe this is talking about Christ, as the Son of God, that reveals God to us. And that's how, in fact, Hebrews starts:

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NKJV) 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.
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  #98  
Old 05-13-2021, 12:12 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Finally, regarding Roman 6. The may point of Paul is hinted in the very beginning: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?". Paul uses a theological hammer to destroy that argument. If you obtained forgiveness of sin by his dead, does it make sense you relax and keep sinning? No, but using the analogy of being identified with Christ in his dead (and in fact dying to the law and its consequences of not fulfilling it), we are also dead to sin, and in the same way he raised from the dead, we should walk in new life.
But I don't see how anything there invalidates my points.
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:27 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

Regarding Eze 36.

This part definitely refers to repentance and the assistance from God.
"(NKJV) I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you"

This part could be just the detailing of how the "new heart" and "new spirit" will take place.
"(NKJV) I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

This could be referring also to Pentecost, but it doesn't have to be. If it is referring to Pentecost then it is fulfilled by the ministry and spiritual gifts within the assembly.
If it does not, then it is according to the principle described here:

(WEB) 15 For the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity,
whose name is Holy, says:
“I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also who is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble.

The Lord dwells with the contrite (repented heart) and humble spirit. Those that have repented and turned to Him, have Him near.

We can see the tender heart for the Word of God, and their repentance after the return from the Captivity in this verse:

(Neh 8:9NKJV) “This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn nor weep.” For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law.


That's my final interpretation on all those verses.


Now the question is, why the Spirit came only on some in the OT, and then it is a promise for all the people of God in the NT?

I don't have an answer to that question, but this is what comes to mind:

* The Spirit came upon some to help to keep Israel on track, by providing supernatural power for leadership, deliverance, and also prophetic words to correct.
* Why? because of the promise made to Abraham.

So basically, the Spirit came upon some in Israel because of the faith of Abraham.
Why not on all? because of .... sin?

Then after Jesus came, His blood made us perfect before God, and through the faith in Him, we obtain grace. That's why the Spirit now comes on all of those that have faith in Jesus. The Spirit is a partial fulfillment of the promises to Abraham, because the final fulfillment is when the Kingdom is revealed to this planet, and the saints are raised.
The Spirit is a seal, and an earnest of the inheritance, for those that have faith in Jesus.

This verse comes to mind:
Galatians 3:2 (NKJV) 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Basically, the Spirit always came by grace through faith, before Christ, on some because of the faith of Abraham, after Christ, because of the faith in his blood.

I have not developed that to see if it even makes sense, but that's what comes to mind on why the Spirit wasn't a promise before. Maybe somebody here can provide some verses.

Good discussion . I have learned a lot. It has made me developed this topic more.
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  #100  
Old 05-13-2021, 09:41 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage

When it comes to the work of the Spirit, I notice that people put a tremendous emphasis on only one of the "how" that happens. The one people put emphasis on is the fact that God works on us the will and the do for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

People put little value in the other "how" that happens, which is by the spiritual gifts and the ministry gifts within the assembly.


It could be the result of the culture: individualism, and church services setup in a way that gives little chance to the assembly's gift to operate.
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