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  #51  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:14 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
BUMP for Esaias and Jito.... what is your answer to the question?
Faith is one of the gifts listed as a separate gift. So, "If one doesn't have faith will one be lost?"

Ponder that a moment before going forward.
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  #52  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:18 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father draws us and no man can come to him unless this happens. How can He draw us without the Spirit?



It has to mean something! It is quite obvious the spirit of the Lord was at work in the OT, especially considering the words Isaiah wrote. It seems that the fullness of the spirit could not come until Jesus came himself, but that does not mean that the spirit did not work in the hearts of people before then.



What is the difference here? The implication is the same, no matter how you word it! Essentially then, you are still implying that you haven't been filled with the HG until you speak with tongues.
That is the very definition of "Pentecostal", that being filled with the Spirit is signified initially by speaking in tongues. Anyone who disagrees with that premise is by definition non-Pentecostal. Apostolics are Pentecostal in that we agree with the premise.
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  #53  
Old 02-08-2017, 10:28 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Faith is one of the gifts listed as a separate gift. So, "If one doesn't have faith will one be lost?"

Ponder that a moment before going forward.
Are you afraid to answer the question? It seems so. This is a rabbit trail and you know it.

Answer the question.
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  #54  
Old 02-08-2017, 10:32 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
That is the very definition of "Pentecostal", that being filled with the Spirit is signified initially by speaking in tongues. Anyone who disagrees with that premise is by definition non-Pentecostal. Apostolics are Pentecostal in that we agree with the premise.
I have never said that I don't believe in speaking in tongues. I most certainly do believe in it, because I do speak in tongues, and it is an amazing and powerful gift of the Spirit.

Again, you are trying to derail and place a smoke screen to avoid answering my question.
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  #55  
Old 02-08-2017, 07:52 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

How then do you explain these scriptures? There are many different tongues and gifts given. These are gifts given and not the same to each person? So how can one person have the divers kinds of tongues, but another not? How do you determine which tongue gift determines salvation?

And did you answer this question?

One might never speak in tongues, but still be saved? Yes or no?
Quote:
Esaias anwer:
Faith is one of the gifts listed as a separate gift. So, "If one doesn't have faith will one be lost?"

Ponder that a moment before going forward.
I think this was a good answer.
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  #56  
Old 02-08-2017, 11:05 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
I have never said that I don't believe in speaking in tongues. I most certainly do believe in it, because I do speak in tongues, and it is an amazing and powerful gift of the Spirit.

Again, you are trying to derail and place a smoke screen to avoid answering my question.
1. Pentecostal does not = "speaking in tongues." Pentecostal DOES = "speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost."

2. Your question as presented has become "must you have the gift of tongues to be saved". Earlier you were asking along the lines of "must you speak in tongues in order to get saved". In both cases the questions would be answered "No" by EVERY APOSTOLIC ON EARTH however you would take the answer to mean "a person can be saved without ever having spoken in tongues" which is what would NOT be meant by a "no answer".

Questions cannot be answered unless the questioner and the answerer use the same terms the same way.

I noticed you avoided my question to you about faith, which exposed clearly the error of your reasoning on this subject.
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  #57  
Old 02-08-2017, 11:08 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Are you afraid to answer the question? It seems so. This is a rabbit trail and you know it.

Answer the question.
Please don't trow me in dat briar patch, Br'er Fox...
lol

You say tongues is a gift, and not all speak with tongues per Paul.

But he ALSO listed faith as one of those separate gifts. YOUR REASONING must conclude that one can be saved without having faith.
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  #58  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:33 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Faith is one of the gifts listed as a separate gift. So, "If one doesn't have faith will one be lost?"

Ponder that a moment before going forward.
Who ever said that you had to have a GIFT to be saved? I certainly didn't. Mark 16:16 is the passage that has been discussed throughout this thread , and nowhere here does it say you must have a GIFT to be saved. Gifting could also be considered a sign that follows.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
That is the very definition of "Pentecostal", that being filled with the Spirit is signified initially by speaking in tongues. Anyone who disagrees with that premise is by definition non-Pentecostal. Apostolics are Pentecostal in that we agree with the premise.
Nowhere in scripture are the apostles called Pentecostals, are they? That is a recent definition, not scripture. The only scriptural reference we know is that believers were first known as Christians.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.


1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
1. Pentecostal does not = "speaking in tongues." Pentecostal DOES = "speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost."
And where is that exactly found, scripture and verse please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
2. Your question as presented has become "must you have the gift of tongues to be saved". Earlier you were asking along the lines of "must you speak in tongues in order to get saved". In both cases the questions would be answered "No" by EVERY APOSTOLIC ON EARTH however you would take the answer to mean "a person can be saved without ever having spoken in tongues" which is what would NOT be meant by a "no answer".
You sound very confused. In fact, your very words are convoluted. Answering a no, but in reality, really a yes. Your statement "Every Apostolic on earth would say no" is not reality at all. I'm not sure what brand of OP you have been around, but it is certainly not the ones I have been. Like you, many won't outright come out and say you can't be saved without speaking in tongues, yet their actions belie their words. They may not "say" it, but it is certainly the end result of their teachings, which is that you are most certainly not saved if you haven't spoken in tongues, in traditional OP circles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Questions cannot be answered unless the questioner and the answerer use the same terms the same way.

I noticed you avoided my question to you about faith, which exposed clearly the error of your reasoning on this subject.
I asked a question first, which you avoided. You answered (thank you!), I have responded, and it is explained in the above quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Please don't trow me in dat briar patch, Br'er Fox...
lol

You say tongues is a gift, and not all speak with tongues per Paul.

But he ALSO listed faith as one of those separate gifts. YOUR REASONING must conclude that one can be saved without having faith.
See above where I also addressed that red herring you threw out. It is a meaningless rabbit trail.
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  #59  
Old 02-09-2017, 09:01 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Who ever said that you had to have a GIFT to be saved? I certainly didn't. Mark 16:16 is the passage that has been discussed throughout this thread , and nowhere here does it say you must have a GIFT to be saved. Gifting could also be considered a sign that follows.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Nowhere in scripture are the apostles called Pentecostals, are they? That is a recent definition, not scripture. The only scriptural reference we know is that believers were first known as Christians.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.


1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.


And where is that exactly found, scripture and verse please!



You sound very confused. In fact, your very words are convoluted. Answering a no, but in reality, really a yes. Your statement "Every Apostolic on earth would say no" is not reality at all. I'm not sure what brand of OP you have been around, but it is certainly not the ones I have been. Like you, many won't outright come out and say you can't be saved without speaking in tongues, yet their actions belie their words. They may not "say" it, but it is certainly the end result of their teachings, which is that you are most certainly not saved if you haven't spoken in tongues, in traditional OP circles.



I asked a question first, which you avoided. You answered (thank you!), I have responded, and it is explained in the above quote



See above where I also addressed that red herring you threw out. It is a meaningless rabbit trail.
So, you don't accept the universally recognized definition of "Pentecostal". You think it's just a red herring when I point out YOUR REASONING LEADS TO THE CONCLUSION ONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT FAITH. And, you think I sound very confused and speak convolutedly when all I did was point out plainly the inconsistency and fallacy of your reasoning, and point out you are inventing strawman arguments.

Well done, padawan, you are ready to take on the Empire now.

Git Er Dun!
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  #60  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:38 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So, you don't accept the universally recognized definition of "Pentecostal". You think it's just a red herring when I point out YOUR REASONING LEADS TO THE CONCLUSION ONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT FAITH. And, you think I sound very confused and speak convolutedly when all I did was point out plainly the inconsistency and fallacy of your reasoning, and point out you are inventing strawman arguments.

Well done, padawan, you are ready to take on the Empire now.

Git Er Dun!
Nice try E. You didn't address any of the points I made above, except to generalize and condense my words into things I have never said, and it is your reasoning that has led to those conclusions, without any substantial evidence to back it up. No scripture, nothing. Just your opinion.

1. The definition of Christian is one found in scriptures (listed above). The definition of Pentecostal has only been in the last hundred years or so. I pointed that out. Doesn't mean I don't recognize that it is a common understanding of what Pentecostal means now.

2. I have never said you can be saved without faith. That is a ridiculous notion. Faith can be a diversity of the gift of the spirit, as can tongues, healings, prophecies, etc. This whole rabbit trail about faith borders on silly. If you really want to discuss it, why not bring scripture into the discussion?

In what way, what have I said that would lead you to think that one can be saved without faith?

What is really going on is that your "sacred cow" doctrine of believing that if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved is being challenged by scripture, and you have no more legs to stand on, and thus you just are kicking up dust and silly notions such that you don't have to have faith to be saved to make a smoke screen to hide behind.

And that's okay. I appreciate your involvement in this discussion this far. I hope at least it has made you reconsider your position on the issue, study it out, and even if you never say so here, that matters not to me. Perhaps another reader will read and see for themselves the error and fallacy of that concept.

And for the record, for anyone still reading, I will just state again my position as clearly as I can.

I encourage everyone to seek the fullness of the infilling of the Spirit with the giftings that the Lord has given to the church. Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, (Mark 16:16-17, Acts 2:38) and seek the Lord with an open heart, and ask to receive whatever gift of the Holy Ghost He has for you. Tongues seem to be the most common gifting, but if you never receive that gift, don't be discouraged, your salvation isn't lost, but the Lord will "divide to every man severally as He will".

1 Cor. 10
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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