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  #61  
Old 02-10-2017, 07:54 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Nice try E. You didn't address any of the points I made above, except to generalize and condense my words into things I have never said, and it is your reasoning that has led to those conclusions, without any substantial evidence to back it up. No scripture, nothing. Just your opinion.

1. The definition of Christian is one found in scriptures (listed above). The definition of Pentecostal has only been in the last hundred years or so. I pointed that out. Doesn't mean I don't recognize that it is a common understanding of what Pentecostal means now.

2. I have never said you can be saved without faith. That is a ridiculous notion. Faith can be a diversity of the gift of the spirit, as can tongues, healings, prophecies, etc. This whole rabbit trail about faith borders on silly. If you really want to discuss it, why not bring scripture into the discussion?

Quote:
To be consistent, faith also must be a gift of the Spirit that some have and some don't. I think you and I agree the gift of faith listed 1 Cor. 12 is not speaking merely of the faith in Christ that leads to salvation, but instead it is a gift of faith that is brought on by the Holy Ghost post conversion.
In what way, what have I said that would lead you to think that one can be saved without faith?

Quote:
By using 1 Corinthians 12 to make tongues optional also makes faith optional. If you say that the gift of faith is different from the faith a person initially has to receive Christ then it is reasonable to apply that same logic to tongues. I believe the gift of diverse kinds of tongues is a gift that goes beyond the initial Holy Ghost infilling and is followed by interpretation. You may disagree, but it is logical


What is really going on is that your "sacred cow" doctrine of believing that if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved is being challenged by scripture, and you have no more legs to stand on, and thus you just are kicking up dust and silly notions such that you don't have to have faith to be saved to make a smoke screen to hide behind.

Quote:
No one is saying faith is optional to be saved. It is just a point Esaias made about the consistency of your own reasoning about 1 Corinthians 12. If the faith mentioned there is beyond the initial faith at conversion so can also the diverse tongues be beyond the initial evidence received at the moment you are baptized with the Spirit.


And that's okay. I appreciate your involvement in this discussion this far. I hope at least it has made you reconsider your position on the issue, study it out, and even if you never say so here, that matters not to me. Perhaps another reader will read and see for themselves the error and fallacy of that concept.

Quote:
I dare to say Esaias and most every other sincere Pentecostal has reconsidered their stance on this issue at some point or another. There are always gonna be questions without answers, but the fact remains, that speaking in tongues and prophesying is the only evidence shown in scripture of the Holy Ghost baptism (to speak in tongues the words of God is in essence prophesying).

I have not seen one illustration in scripture you have posted that a person receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost at repentance/baptism. The only illustrations that are given in scripture says they spoke with tongues.



And for the record, for anyone still reading, I will just state again my position as clearly as I can.

I encourage everyone to seek the fullness of the infilling of the Spirit with the giftings that the Lord has given to the church. Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, (Mark 16:16-17, Acts 2:38) and seek the Lord with an open heart, and ask to receive whatever gift of the Holy Ghost He has for you. Tongues seem to be the most common gifting, but if you never receive that gift, don't be discouraged, your salvation isn't lost, but the Lord will "divide to every man severally as He will".

Quote:
BTW when you tell people to seek the fullness of the infilling it makes it sound like people receive the Holy Ghost in installments. People either have received the Holy Ghost or they have not, but there is no partial baptism. I fear that people have come to this conclusion of optional tongues to be inclusive rather than being biblical. Again, if some one says they have the baptism of the Holy Ghost why should we argue? Although, we can only teach and preach what the Bible says.

I have never put anyone in heaven or hell, but instead have just taught and preached the Bible to the best of my ability. This argument that you must speak in tongues to be saved is really just to kick up the dust. It is not tongues that anyone is to seek, but it is God (the evidence comes automatically). In the end we will all stand before God and he will judge who enters in. I will continue to teach people to expect tongues when they get the Holy Ghost. I assure you, I will not complain to God if he lets others through those pearly gates who have no spoken in tongues I will just be glad to make it myself.
1 Cor. 10
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Last edited by good samaritan; 02-10-2017 at 08:03 AM.
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  #62  
Old 02-10-2017, 11:55 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Atta girl Kept, put it on'm
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Last edited by shag; 02-10-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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  #63  
Old 02-10-2017, 12:11 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Nice try E. You didn't address any of the points I made above, except to generalize and condense my words into things I have never said, and it is your reasoning that has led to those conclusions, without any substantial evidence to back it up. No scripture, nothing. Just your opinion.
I have repeatedly identified the flaw in your reasoning process. Others have as well. You avoid that with a bunch of distracting worries about "distractions" lol.

So I concluded you are either unable or unwilling to recognize what I am pointing out, and are unable or unwilling to address THAT root of the whole thing.

So what else is there to say? Not much except "How's the weather?"
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  #64  
Old 02-10-2017, 01:39 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

GS: Your post is not quoted correctly, so therefore I can only respond by copying and pasting.

Quote:
No one is saying faith is optional to be saved. It is just a point Esaias made about the consistency of your own reasoning about 1 Corinthians 12. If the faith mentioned there is beyond the initial faith at conversion so can also the diverse tongues be beyond the initial evidence received at the moment you are baptized with the Spirit.
The argument you and E are using is the one that is flawed, and further enhances my position that a measure of the spirit is present at repentance/baptism. If faith were not present at repentance, how then could that work be accomplished? It is because a measure of the spirit is given by the Lord to draw us to Him, and to convict us of our need for Him, and to reach out to Him in faith.

Are you and E saying that faith is NOT part of the repentance/baptism experience and can only take place after receiving the HG? Your stance seems to imply that since faith is mentioned in the listing of the gifts of the spirit, therefore it could not possibly be present before the HG is received. If you are indeed saying that faith only comes after receiving the gifting of the HG/spirit, please back up with scripture.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Mark 16:17 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Grace and faith are present in order to be saved at repentance/baptism.... these scriptures agree.

My position is that the Spirit of the Lord gifts us with whatever He chooses to draw us to Him, and that there are diversities of the gifting of the spirit, whether it be a measure of faith at repentance, to greater faith to "move mountains" so to speak later on after a fuller pouring out of the spirit... we cannot limit the Lord and how he pours out the gift into our lives.

Quote:
I dare to say Esaias and most every other sincere Pentecostal has reconsidered their stance on this issue at some point or another. There are always gonna be questions without answers, but the fact remains, that speaking in tongues and prophesying is the only evidence shown in scripture of the Holy Ghost baptism (to speak in tongues the words of God is in essence prophesying).

I have not seen one illustration in scripture you have posted that a person receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost at repentance/baptism. The only illustrations that are given in scripture says they spoke with tongues.
Sigh. Have you not read this verse?

Mark 16:17 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Say it out loud: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved... and signs shall follow them that believe. You believe, get baptized in Jesus name, are saved, and signs follow. The spirit is at work, and is present, but the full diversity and ability of the spirit to work in one's life comes after believing and being baptized.

Quote:
BTW when you tell people to seek the fullness of the infilling it makes it sound like people receive the Holy Ghost in installments.
I didn't write this, Paul did:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


How do you get diversities of the same spirit? Does everyone get the same gifts? The same adminsitrations? The same operations? Obviously it is up to the Lord how much and when He gifts us with His spirit.

Quote:
People either have received the Holy Ghost or they have not, but there is no partial baptism. I fear that people have come to this conclusion of optional tongues to be inclusive rather than being biblical. Again, if some one says they have the baptism of the Holy Ghost why should we argue? Although, we can only teach and preach what the Bible says.

I have never put anyone in heaven or hell, but instead have just taught and preached the Bible to the best of my ability. This argument that you must speak in tongues to be saved is really just to kick up the dust. It is not tongues that anyone is to seek, but it is God (the evidence comes automatically). In the end we will all stand before God and he will judge who enters in. I will continue to teach people to expect tongues when they get the Holy Ghost. I assure you, I will not complain to God if he lets others through those pearly gates who have no spoken in tongues I will just be glad to make it myself.
Thank you for this. This is all I can hope for in a discussion like this. I understand that this is a difficult subject, and you are always so gracious and kind in your responses. It is a pleasure to discuss this with you.

I agree that tongues seems to be the most common gifting that the Spirit pours out, but because there is no specific scripture, nor any other basis for it, telling someone they are not saved because they have not spoken in tongues is where the line has to be drawn in the sand.

May the Lord bless you!
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  #65  
Old 02-10-2017, 01:39 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Atta girl Kept, put it on'm
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  #66  
Old 02-10-2017, 01:42 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I have repeatedly identified the flaw in your reasoning process. Others have as well. You avoid that with a bunch of distracting worries about "distractions" lol.

So I concluded you are either unable or unwilling to recognize what I am pointing out, and are unable or unwilling to address THAT root of the whole thing.

So what else is there to say? Not much except "How's the weather?"
See my response to Bro. GS regarding my "flawed" reasoning... I have not ignored or distracted anything, but have responded to you every time.

The weather is fine here, was quite icy this morning, but now the snow and ice are melting, the sun is shining, and I can't complain!
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  #67  
Old 02-11-2017, 01:48 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
GS:


The argument you and E are using is the one that is flawed, and further enhances my position that a measure of the spirit is present at repentance/baptism. If faith were not present at repentance, how then could that work be accomplished? It is because a measure of the spirit is given by the Lord to draw us to Him, and to convict us of our need for Him, and to reach out to Him in faith.

Are you and E saying that faith is NOT part of the repentance/baptism experience and can only take place after receiving the HG? Your stance seems to imply that since faith is mentioned in the listing of the gifts of the spirit, therefore it could not possibly be present before the HG is received. If you are indeed saying that faith only comes after receiving the gifting of the HG/spirit, please back up with scripture.
You've got to be kidding me.
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  #68  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:47 AM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

KBTW, If the Holy Ghost is given at repentance and water baptism how do you explain this?

Quote:
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of themnly they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
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  #69  
Old 02-12-2017, 05:00 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
KBTW, If the Holy Ghost is given at repentance and water baptism how do you explain this?
The spirit of the Lord is present in a measure, or in part at repentance/baptism, but the fullness or complete infilling of the spirit takes place when the Lord decides the time is right, and the giftings of the spirit are varied and diverse, as Paul said in 1 Cor. 12.
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Old 02-12-2017, 05:01 PM
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Re: Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongue

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You've got to be kidding me.
? About what?
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