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  #231  
Old 03-11-2021, 07:00 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
I agree to a certain extent.
However, I do believe that a pastor has the responsibility to set "expectations" for the local congregation.
I also see a danger in your viewpoint.
Because if you are not in unity with your pastor or fellow brethren you risk sowing seeds of confusion.

What if we taught principles instead of detailed specifics and allowed for slight reasonable deviations rather than expecting people to follow like lemmings.
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  #232  
Old 03-11-2021, 09:38 AM
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
What if we taught principles instead of detailed specifics and allowed for slight reasonable deviations rather than expecting people to follow like lemmings.
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  #233  
Old 03-11-2021, 08:49 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
I agree to a certain extent.
However, I do believe that a pastor has the responsibility to set "expectations" for the local congregation.
I also see a danger in your viewpoint.
Because if you are not in unity with your pastor or fellow brethren you risk sowing seeds of confusion.
Brother,

If I am in unity with the Bible, but not in unity with the pastor or fellow brethren, am I right?
Or wrong?

Iím not meaning to be contentious. Iím just trying to dialogue and possibly learn something. Because it seems that you agree with the scripture that I referenced, but you still think I may be sowing seeds of confusion. Yet when I explained it to you, it didnít seem to confuse you. But it seems that you think others may be confused more easily than you.

Am I understanding you?

And should I perhaps teach the pastor or other fellow brethren what the Bible has to say about a particular subject?

Or would I be out of my place to do so?

I think this subject could stand to be scrutinized.
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  #234  
Old 03-15-2021, 10:02 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

tm - what I "hear" you saying is that the only one who has any authority over your family is you.
That is what I disagree with.
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  #235  
Old 03-15-2021, 08:39 PM
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
tm - what I "hear" you saying is that the only one who has any authority over your family is you.
That is what I disagree with.
Do you have scripture to support your disagreement?

Who else do you believe has authority over my family.

Please be specific. Please say why or what gives someone else authority over my family. It seems you have reservations, but you’re reluctant to provide specifics.

Thanks
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  #236  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:57 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

tm - the entire writings of Paul are my support. Or James or Peter. None of us are "Lone Rangers", we are members of a body.
While I do agree with your overall premise (if the husband isn't living right, odds are the wife and children either have or will have issues), your attitude seems to be that a pastor can't tell me (or my family) what to do.
As a husband, I do submit to my pastor's authority and role in my life.
If I cannot do that, I will find a church where I can.
Do my pastor and I agree on everything?
No, but I still acknowledge him on setting a direction for the local assembly.

So, what role do you think a pastor should have?
What is their function?
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  #237  
Old 03-17-2021, 09:34 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
tm - the entire writings of Paul are my support.
No brother. We are back where we started. Remember? You invoked Paul to begin with. So I quoted Paul directly. Paul doesnít support your opinion. He refutes your opinion.

If Iím wrong, please post scripture. Your are invoking Paul, Peter and James, but you donít post any scripture.

Iím willing to answer your questions, but letís cover this first.

Once again . . .

Do you have scripture to support your disagreement?

Who else do you believe has authority over my family.

Please be specific. Please say why or what gives someone else authority over my family. It seems you have reservations, but youíre reluctant to provide specifics.

Thanks
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  #238  
Old 03-18-2021, 09:21 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

Let's look at the passages you are using for your authority:
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Notice that Paul told them to be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
So, Paul basically told them to follow him, as long as he was following Christ.
Paul is acting as the pastor...

The other scripture you cite is:
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Clearly given to understand how things should work in the home. The husband is to have rule over his household, with love, as Christ loved the church.

I read nothing in my Bible that says no one else has spiritual authority, except the husband.

Now, as to pastors:

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I am sure that I am not going to change your mind on this topic.
And you are not going to change mine either.
However, I believe that we are closer to agreement, than you may think.

My concern with your words (tone is hard to extract) is that you "seem" to have some issue with pastors in general.
I have encountered several others with the same issue.
Many of them eventually left apostolic churches and started their own house church.
Without fail, everyone of them has lost their family.
Even if the parents stayed together, the children have lost the message.

God Bless
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  #239  
Old 03-18-2021, 11:36 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
Let's look at the passages you are using for your authority:
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Notice that Paul told them to be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
So, Paul basically told them to follow him, as long as he was following Christ.
Paul is acting as the pastor...

The other scripture you cite is:
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Clearly given to understand how things should work in the home. The husband is to have rule over his household, with love, as Christ loved the church.

I read nothing in my Bible that says no one else has spiritual authority, except the husband.

Now, as to pastors:

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I am sure that I am not going to change your mind on this topic.
And you are not going to change mine either.
However, I believe that we are closer to agreement, than you may think.

My concern with your words (tone is hard to extract) is that you "seem" to have some issue with pastors in general.
I have encountered several others with the same issue.
Many of them eventually left apostolic churches and started their own house church.
Without fail, everyone of them has lost their family.
Even if the parents stayed together, the children have lost the message.

God Bless
Thank you for your answer. I’m occupied for a time but I will be parsing this soon. I think we’re about to make some progress on the subject.

Meanwhile, could you do one more thing for me. You invoked Paul, James and Peter. But I think you’ve quoted Paul only. Could you go ahead and quote Peter and James so I can address those scripture passages as well?

Thanks again.
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  #240  
Old 03-21-2021, 11:30 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Apostolics of Grant Parish/ Br. Lane Creech

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
Let's look at the passages you are using for your authority:
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But
I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Notice that Paul told them to be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
So, Paul basically told them to follow him, as long as he was following Christ.
Paul is acting as the pastor...

The other scripture you cite is:
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Clearly given to understand how things should work in the home. The husband is to have rule over his household, with love, as Christ loved the church.

I read nothing in my Bible that says no one else has spiritual authority, except the husband.
Iím going to cover the authority of the husband which is what weíve been talking about. Then I will cover the pastor, which is the second part of your post.

Paul clearly states that the husband is head of the wife. Headship equals authority. I think that is the portion that we agree on.

But, you SAY you agree with what Paul says, then you proceed to make an exception from absolute silence. You said that the Bible doesnít specifically say that the husband is the sole authority. So you manufacture out of thin air and silence a doctrine that the pastor has authority over my wife as well, and possibly my children.

BROTHER,
Paulís language is incredibly strong here. If the pastor has authority over my wife, or myself, this would have been the place to say so. But he didnít. So you proceed to (in your mind, it seems) correct his shortcomings and omissions. You shoehorn the pastor into a position between Jesus and the husband. And you believe that you are justified in doing so. You think thatís what Paul is really meaning, even though it is obviously not what he said.

So allow me to amplify Paulís message. Iím not going to add to it, or take away from it. Iím just going to point out some things that you are overlooking in his language. Now donít think Iím accusing you of bad intentions. I believe your intentions are good, and I believe you are sincere, but you are sincerely wrong. I still love you. But sincerely wrong, is just wrong. So allow me . . .

To make it easier for you, I color coded the scripture passage for you. I believe you correctly interpreted verse one. And in verse two Paul praises them for paying attention to him and remembering what heís told them, basically respecting his example to them. But (notice the but?) in Verse three, there is a but. (See how I worked that in?) This ďbutĒ is crucial. Heís saying attaboy. Youíve done well by respecting me. BUT

Brother you left out the but. And that is a grievous error. But, what?

But I would have you to know. But, lest any of you be confused. But just to clarify.

But the man is head of the wife. But Jesus is head of the man. But God is head of Jesus.

Thank you for giving me respect, but this is the order of authority.

And Paul somehow left himself out of the chain of command.

And he did it twice. And Peter did it as well.

1Pet.3

[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

And if you notice, it is obvious that Peter didnít say that the wives should be subject to the husband IF he is in church. No, he said if he isnít in church, maybe the submission of his wife will help him to be won to God.

Neither Paul nor Peter touted their own authority over the husband OR the wife. Instead they ceded authority clearly to the husband.

So in the example of Paul, he is saying that as Christ is head of the church (Iím pretty sure you believe that Christ is head of the church?) so is the husband head of the wife.

Now you concede that this means that the husband is head of the wife, but only under his roof. But Paul clearly refutes this. In verse 24 (I have enlarged it and added color for your convenience) Paul tells what things the husband has authority over the wife in.

In EVERY Thing !!!!!

I hope this helps.
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