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  #41  
Old 09-24-2011, 11:28 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

AD 1300-1400

�� AD 1300-1350 Anabaptist organizations (One God) sprang up in many places.

�� AD 1300-1414 Gothic Bibles had been used. English Bibles were used in the early 15th century. Catholics burned all the Bibles they could fine. (L. Boettner, p. 89).

�� AD 1312-1315 Apostolics were all over Eastern Europe.

�� AD 1381-1383 John Wycliffe, a professor in the University of Oxford, worked intensely to translate the English Bible. He preached against the countless atrocities of the Vatican. He stated that the Bible alone, without tradition, was the sole rule of faith. In AD 1415, the Council of Constance condemned Wycliffe. In 1428 Wycliffe's bones were burned by papal command. (A. Curtis, "Christ History" p. 1985, p. 24). History records indicate multiplied of Apostolics alive during this century.

�� AD 1303 Many histories describe the complete apostasy of the Vatican, it's popes as devils.

�� AD 1391 JEWS MASSACRED IN SPAIN-EUROPE. On March 15, bishop Ferran Martinez

started the anti-Jewish riot in Spain. It led to the great SPANISH INQUISITION. 50,000 Jews and Moors were burned in Auto da Fes (Act of Faith), 800,000 more victimized. (Cecil Roth, pp. 14-25).

AD 1400-1500

Most non-Catholics were still refereed to as ANABAPTIST. However, Anabaptist were neither Catholic or Protestant. This was pre-Reformation day. There were great numbers of Apostolic clergymen preaching Acts 2:38.

�� AD 1420 Apostolic religion swept the land in spite of the Inquisition. It was estimated that there were 4,000,000 One God Christians during that period. Blunt wrote of them as "Streams of Heretics." (Blunt, p. 16). Bainton screamed, "They covered the land." (Bainton, p. 279). There were more than 40 Jesus Name Organizations during this period.

�� The Roman Catholic Inquisition turned Europe into a holocaust. During this century billions of dollars and millions of acres of land were seized from Jews, Moors and Anabaptist.

�� Papal permission for SLAVERY was given to Prince Henry the navigator. (Bernstien & Green, p. 302; Wm. Lnager, pp. 486-504). Henry's captains began the slave trade by taking African Blacks to Portugal. Columbus introduced Black and Indian slavery into the Americas, not American Southerners. Blame the Vatican for slavery. ("The Detroit News,

�� AD 1460 Catholic Podebrad persecuted Apostolics. 400,000 pious Manichaeans (Acts 2 Christians) fled into Bosnia (Knox, p. p. 81)

�� AD 1469 FERDINAND and ISABELLA of Spain were married. They became the earth's greatest husband and wife team of Jew killers. After killing the Jews and confiscating their property they became very wealthy. (Lea, p. 333; C. Roth, pp. 71-90). Could this be the way they financed Columbus in 1492?

�� AD 1496-1500 Malabarese, of Malabar, India, (Acts 2:38 Christians) were massacred by Catholic Inquisitor Alvares Cabral. (A.S. Atiya, p. 359).

AD 1500-1600

This was unique century of religious history. Most think of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli as classical reformers. However they set the theological trend for the world's modern Protestant Trinity religions.

�� AD 1517 On October 31 Luther nailed his Theses on the Palace Church door. Now the world had not only Catholic Trinitarianism but it also had Protestant Trinitarianism! However, there were still a lot of One God Christians around.

�� AD 1520-1532 GLOSSOLALIA OUTBREAK. Apostolic Pentecostalism was all through Luther and Zwingli's Europe. (W. Horton, pp. 97-138).

�� AD 1533 There were big organizations of Anti-Nicenes and Anti-Trinitarians. Some were classed as Salbellians. (G. H. Williams, p. 663).

�� AD 1553 MICHAEL SERVETUS, a Spaniard, was the greatest influence of the Acts two message during the sixteenth and seventeenth century for all of Europe and Asia. He was put to death in Geneva for denying Rome's Trinity theory. Servetus died in Jesus Name, and Calvin murdered him in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.(R. Bainton, p. 298). SERVETUS studied law. He later became medical doctor. He was also a preacher. He found problems with the Trinity theory. In fact he wrote a book, "On The Errors of The Trinity" that was published in Hagenow, near Strasbough in 1531. His book was wide spread before it could be censored. He had to change his name after writing his book. Under cover he had an assumed name and he practiced medicine in Lyons. He corresponded with John Calvin. Calvins views were the same as Luthers. Calvin told the Catholics the location of Servetus and they had him arrested. Calvin encouraged the court to find him guilty of capitol crime. Servetus was sentenced to be burned at the stake. The charges were that he did not believe in the Trinity, nor infant baptism. (See: "After the Way called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, pp. 70-74)

�� AD 1501 Catholics started slavery in the Americas.

�� AD 1521 Luther rejected Biblical Pentecostalism! (Knox, "Enthusiasm", pp.134,135).

�� AD 1531 Luther agreed to the deth penalty in order to annihilate Anabaptist bodies and Jews. (Bainton, p. 279; p. Lapide, "Three Popes and the Jews, p. 25) It appears that Luther was not as sincere about Bible truth as historians and some Christian groups indicate. For instance Mr. Luther fully discused the Acts 2 message with the Apostolics all around him. He rejected it. (See: "Martin Luther," by J. Dillengerger, p. 279; Knox , pp. 134-135).

�� AD 1571 Phillip II martyred about 3,000,000 non-Catholics in the Netherlands. (Thompson, p. 187).

AD 1600-1700

Antibaptist groups continued to grow. Sabellianism was throughout Europe. Many pious clergymen were prepared to lay aside doctrinal differences and become true Apostolic Moravian Oneness. (G. H. Williams, pp. 656,698,670). It would be great if they could do that today! Frances Cornwell was one of the most educated Baptist in England during this period. He obtained a Master of Arts degree from Emanuel College. He was also trained at Cambridge. He was a vicar with the Church of England. He said, "The Lord opened the eyes of my understandings about the Acts 2:38 message." ("Two Oueries, p. 5) He wrote extensively and eloquently in defence of Biblical doctrines. Yet he is almost totally ignored by Baptist historians.

�� AD 1662 English citizens, meaning Holy Ghost filled Quakers, were deported from England, and sold as salves to rich Spanish Catholic families on plantations in Barbados and Jamaica. These pious glossolalists were sold under the "Conventicle and Five Mile Act. (J.H. Blunt, p. 465,466).

�� AD 1611 the King James Bible was printed. There were 47 scholars appointed as translators. All were Trinitarians, most were Englishmen. They worked for 7 years on the translation.

�� AD 1650-1670 Quietism outbreak, in which 60,000 ex-Catholics experienced Pentecostal glossolalia (speaking in tongues). (Knox, p. 243).

AD 1700-1800

Acts two message continued to spread world wide. Holy Ghost revivals were breaking out all over.

�� AD 1728-1731 there were 600 recorded Miracles! (Knox, pp. 372-376). There was a 100 year prayer meeting started. (A. K. Curtis, "Christ History" Vol. 2, No. 1, p.18) Knox wrote about England being a Pentecostal Babel.

�� AD 1734 Rev. John Wesley and Charles Wesley, went to the Moravian Christians for doctrine. Both turned to Moravianism (One God Apostolics). They witnessed Pentecostalism among in Georgia. (Knox, pp. 466-469).

�� AD 1772 A Holy Ghost outpouring was in Sweden.

�� AD 1774 on August 6, ANN LEE imported tongues speaking into the US and it spread. (E.D. Andrews,pp.15-19). William Penn brought tongues to America in 1677. (See: "After the Way Called Heresy by, Thomas Weisser) During this century the Catholics and Lutherans killed each other. AD 1733 Thousands of Catholics defected to the state of Georgia, USA and found Holy Ghost salvation. There were many healings and miracles. In 1762, the French government forbade miracles. There were uncountable miracles. (R.A. Knox, pp. 373-388).

�� In 1774 John Wesley lost 400 Methodist to Jesus Name Moravians in London. (R.A. Knox, p. 476).

AD 1800-1900

Why didn't we hear more about Apostolics during the 19th century, is a question often asked? As you recall in this study we found that Waldo and Luther set the trend to compromise to Rome's Trinity Doctrine and ignored the Acts two doctrine. Then Protestant Trinitarian influence lured the greater numbers. Many Christian organizations turned to Trinity doctrine.

�� In 1835, Lowell, Ohio, had a Acts 2:38 Church of Camisardds. (Rev. Joe Nelson, Ph.D., W.VA., had the records)

�� In 1850 Dan Huntington, Boston, Mass. baptized converts according to Acts 2:38. (V. Synan, p. 163).

�� In 1854 there was a 10 year long revival in Lebanon, NY and thousands became Spirit filled. Same thing happened in Canada.

�� In 1856 more than 160,000 tongues speakers in America. (Blunt, p. 467). Many other documented Holy Ghost groups were in America during this century.

�� AD 1804 Napoleon fought the Vatican. He seized papal lands and restricted papal rule. He advocated, "Destroy Rome and the papacy." (M. Martin, "The Decline & Fall of the Rom Ch." p. 236).

�� July 15, 1834 the Catholic Inquisition ended. America was about 250 years old at that time. In the 601 years it is estimated that 68,000,000 persons were put to death by the Inquisition. (C. Roth, p.267; Berstein & Green, p. 237 as to dates). Bull fights had its origin after the Inquisition ended. The people had were used to watching brutal murder so bull fights were the next best thing.

�� In 1861 the Civil War started and President Lincoln started to abolish human enslavement. The war ended in 1864. In 1900 there were 76,000,000 people in America.
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Thanks but it won't matter wait and see.
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2011, 12:44 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Thanks but it won't matter wait and see.
Well in all honesty, although the evidence shows that were were people who were oneness, people who baptized in Jesus Name, and People who received the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, there is no clear evidence if they believed more like PCI, or PAJC, or UPC, or some other variation.

I think that you can't argue the point from history or the tradition of men, you have to argue directly from the Bible.

And even there you will still have a diffference of opinion because we have the Bible in KJV, ESV, NIV, translations which comes from various "original texts" that people argue the authenticity of.

On top of that, people will bring in the Greek translations which can be interpreted with various nuances.

I'm convinced that the truth lies somewhere between PCI hard core and PAJC. And that as long as you follow the Bible, repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, and receive the Holy Ghost, you can't go wrong.

The blood was shed on the cross, Jesus took it to the mercy seat. If the blood is applied in repentance fine, but even then you have to go on with the faith that results in obedience, be baptized in Jesus Name because of/for the remissions of sins, and receive the baptism on the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. Why would anyone not want that?
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2011, 03:12 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
You'd think, from the way I Peter 3:21 is most often quoted that it said the following.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us

But it doesn't.

It says the following...

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So... I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the further explanation found in parenthesis.

The statement is made that, in like figure to the ark & the flood, baptism doth also now save us.

Then a further explanation is given that says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God"

What does that mean?

IMHO the phrase noted in parenthesis within the context of Peter's remarks, which compared Noah's salvation BY water and ours THROUGH water baptism, represents an expression, albeit veiled, which advises that this act does NOT do away with (cancel, annul or render void) the consequences of sin, which is the death of the flesh.

This is the reason why even those who have taken heed to and obeyed the gospel message (i.e., Acts 2:38) still MUST experience death, without exception whatsoever!

The phrase - "filth of the flesh" is simply another way of expressing "the judgment of death." Nothing more than that!
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2011, 07:00 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
IMHO the phrase noted in parenthesis within the context of Peter's remarks, which compared Noah's salvation BY water and ours THROUGH water baptism, represents an expression, albeit veiled, which advises that this act does NOT do away with (cancel, annul or render void) the consequences of sin, which is the death of the flesh.

This is the reason why even those who have taken heed to and obeyed the gospel message (i.e., Acts 2:38) still MUST experience death, without exception whatsoever!

The phrase - "filth of the flesh" is simply another way of expressing "the judgment of death." Nothing more than that!
you've really lost me on this one, what do you mean by saying after we obey the gospel we must experience death?
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  #46  
Old 09-24-2011, 07:01 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
you've really lost me on this one, what do you mean by saying after we obey the gospel we must experience death?
A writer wrote that he died daily.
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  #47  
Old 09-24-2011, 07:03 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
A writer wrote that he died daily.
do you think that is what the poster above me said? I dont think so, did you read his post?
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  #48  
Old 09-24-2011, 07:21 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

My answer stands. Though his comment on filth/flesh is an angle that I have nevah read in regard to the passage in question.
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  #49  
Old 09-24-2011, 07:29 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
So you have a quote where Sabellius did not speak in tongues? Elders Chalfant & Wisner both have books order them.
I have them (Thomas Weisser). I was also sitting just a few seats away from Bill Chalfant when he backed down on most of his assertions during a Oneness Symposium back in 1992 or 1994. He's been writing out-and-out historical fiction ever since. Notice?

Also, they just never seem to have been able to demonstrate that Sabellius preached the "Whole Gospel," as it were. Weisser mentions Sabellius' Modalism, he then misapprehends what is said about Sabellius and claims that Sabellius preached the modern OP variety of "Dispensational Modalism." He then quotes a saying by NA Urshan and attributes it to Sabellius. See http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=259

BESIDES! YOU said that YOU had "ample evidence." Let's have it.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:14 PM
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Re: Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

My comments in Deeper Blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

in the interest of considering all evidence, please review and comment

please note that various church history in interspersed with the evidence of peoples who baptized in Jesus Name and/or had the HG. This does not prove that there is any church history that corresponds directly with the UPC model though. please comment

AD 33-100

�� AD 34 Phillip baptized the Ethiopian. This new convert took the Acts message to North Africa and started North African Christianity. This message spread through all of Africa. (A. Neander,pp.71,79,132,424) It never perished.

Except for the fact that the Coptic Ethiopian Church had no clue as to what the first Oneness Pentecostal missionaries were even talking about when they arrived in the 20th century. Also, those missionaries never reported ever finding any OP believers when they arrived. The Ethiopian Coptic bibles contain late witnesses of the Gnostic teachings - things like Jesus never came "in the flesh." To this day, this teaching still divides modern Ethiopian OP believers from their North American brothers. Therefore, we can find no evidence to support this writer's claim that his idea of "the Acts message" "never perished" in Africa - we can't even find that it was ever there until POST Azusa Street. We don't even know if the eunuch Phillip baptized ever spoke in tongues.

�� AD 46-50 Paue, et.al., evangelized Asia Minor and lower Europe. (Acts 15:14)

�� AD 51 Paul preached on Mars Hill at Athens, Greece. (Acts 17:22)

�� AD 50-60 Apostle Thomas indoctrinated Malabar, India with Acts 2:38 doctrine. (A.S. Atiya, pp. 53,261)

If he means Aziz Suryal Atiya, his page references are as useless as Steve's. Professor Atiya wrote more than twenty books - most of them were multi-volume collections. Why doesn't www.acts238saves.org give us a real citation that we can double check? Atiya was an expert and something of a proponent of Gnostic Coptic Christianity (see above). I seriously doubt he ever said anything like what is attributed to him here.

�� AD 66-90 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, because they were not of us. (1 John 2:19;Jude 1- 3). Most were apostate Greeks who had been seethed in Platonism, polytheism, mythology and philosophy. Some could never understand monotheism.

John 1:1-14, for an example of Neo-Platonism?

�� AD 90 CATHOLIC CHURCH starts. TRINITARIANISM invented. (L. Paine, pp.86,287). It was derived from Plato's celestial arithmetic. (L. Hogben, p.266). Tertullian twisted Plato's TIMAEUS into his "TRINITAS." Here started the Trinity.

Tertullian coined the Latin phrase "Trinitas" to describe his understanding of the complexities within the Godhead. Like "Persona," most of the phrases he coined came from Ancient Etruscan and not Greek. "Timaeus" was a character used by Plato to set up Socrates' Critias. Again, John 1:1-14 and other passages of the NT give us a good representation of Plato's "demiurge," and other concepts. If it was wrong for the Apostle John to have drawn upon this material, then I suppose it was wrong for Tertullian to have done so as well.

AD 100-200

The Acts water baptism continued. (A. Neander,p.301) Tongues speaking continued. (W. Horton, pp. 71-75,150). They preached the Apostolic One God message. (Blunt, p. 440).

John Henry Blunt? Most editions of his "A Key to the Knowledge of Church History (Ancient)" have only 155 pages and then the Index. On page 61 he gives something of a table like this one but never mentions "ACTS 2:38" or the doctrine that this writer wants to push. John James Blunt? He too was an Anglican Priest whose writings focused mostly upon providing a historical justification for the English Reformation. Doubt that either said what is given here. Of course, by hiding your actual sources you can ensure that no one is able to double check your assertions.

�� AD 96-100 Apostle John died. He had carried on for Paul and evangelized the Roman world, Armenia, Malabar, Saxony, and Glastonbury.

Glastonbury? Hah! Malabar? So says the Coptic (Gnostic) 'Apostolic' Church of Western India (and the definitely DON'T preach the "Acts 2:38 message). Notice the links to British-Israelism and again to the Gnostic Coptic faith?

�� AD 117 Celtic missionaries spread Acts 2 over Western Europe. (A. Neander,p.49). Gospel preached in China. (Langer,p.537). Apostolics had Bibles. (Blunt,p.127).

Now, the Celtic Church did practice baptism by pouring or sprinkling in "Jesus' name." Clovis the Frank was so baptized by Irish missionaries. See Thomas Cahill's "How the Irish Saved Civilization" for a popular treatment of this. (Clovis was the founder of the line of Frankish kings known as the Merovingians. ... ALSO: When Jesuit missionaries arrived in Western China in the 16th Century, they found some Christians of a Nestorian-like persuasion. Not "Acts 2:38 message" in China until after 1913.

�� AD 157 MONTANISM amplified. (Blunt,pp.338,440). Montanist were One God tongue talkers, Acts 2 Christians. Montanist were also called SABELLIANISM. (Blunt, PP.340,440). Montanism was alive as late as 1909 in Moravia. R.A. Knox, p.402).

Montanus himself was almost certainly a Trinitarian" (really a "proto-Trinitarian"). The greatest advocate and most well known proponent of Montanism was of course... Tertullian, who you have already vilified for NOT being a "One God tongue talker" and etc. Though, he did advocate and even boasted of glossolalia within his fellowship.

�� AD 180 THE NORTH AFRICAN APOSTOLIC CHURCH fought the Catholic system. (A. Neander,p.132;H.C. Frend, p.91)

That would of course have been a surprise to such famous North African Christian writers as Origen, Clement, Tertullian and later Cyril and Augustine.

�� AD 175 Early ideas about purgatory, catechism, and confirmation seeped into Catholicism which was adopted from the Orphic cult. (Bernstein & Green,p. 78).

�� AD 193 Emperor SEPTIMUS SEVERUS forbade any to join Apostolic Christianity or Judaism! (H. F. Frend,p 91).

Severus and most Roman officials of this time period saw little or no difference between any form of Christianity and Judaism. They felt that the whole matter was more of a "Jewish argument" and they had little time and almost no patience for such matters (See Pilate's attempt to "shuffle" the "Jesus problem" off to Herod - Luke 23:1-7; and Gallio's comments in Acts 18:14-16).

With the resurgence of Persia in the East and pressure from Germanic tribes to the North, Rome was very keen to see the people within its empire conform to a "trustworthy" standard. As the emperor's grew increasingly paranoid and vain and their own civil wars intensified, to be seen as not being "properly Roman" was very dangerous indeed. Still, this condition says very little about either Christian or Jewish teachings and doctrine.


In summary, there are several statements here that are so vague that most people would accept them as "true." The references are deliberately obscured to prevent anyone from double checking the assertions made. There are plenty of bald faced... uh, .... "inventions" here as well.

Last edited by pelathais; 09-24-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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