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  #81  
Old 05-31-2013, 07:18 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

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Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
So if you hear a voice from God are you going to put your kids under the water of the bathtub? I mean there IS biblical precedence...
Im not talking about hearing any voice. Im talking about believing in the promises of God. I personalize the teachings of Christ. He said to him who believes all things are possible right?
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  #82  
Old 05-31-2013, 07:44 PM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

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Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
Agree Larry.

I've dealt with a lot of JWs... Cell savers do not always work well enough in a serious bleed out and in cases of DIC or other complications platelets and factors are needed ASAP there is no time to change your mind. So by refusing in advance one is sure to die. Most surgeons I've known just refuse to take patients to the OR if they don't want blood under any circumstances and I don't blame them one bit.

Adults have the right to die if they wish... no one has the right to decide that for a child... No one.
Amen, Sister!
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  #83  
Old 06-01-2013, 07:06 PM
deafdriscoll deafdriscoll is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

when jesus healed some men he said show yourselves to the priest.
We are to use common sense and see a doctor even if we are healed. it is a witness of gods healing power.
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  #84  
Old 06-01-2013, 08:22 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My, you're a little testy aren't you?
(laughing) not really
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  #85  
Old 06-01-2013, 10:05 PM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Im not talking about hearing any voice. Im talking about believing in the promises of God. I personalize the teachings of Christ. He said to him who believes all things are possible right?

Michael have you heard the joke about the guy stranded on his roof during a flood? In the joke he refuses a boat and a helicopter sure God will save him... He drowns and when he asks God why he was not saved for his faith God replies that he sent a boat and a helicopter. That is what I believe about nutrition and medicine... Nutrition is the boat, medicine (natural and traditional) is the helicopter. When we pray for healing we need to be sure we are doing our part.
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  #86  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:14 AM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

This article is not meant to be discouraging, but an encouragement to be wise.

A Wisconsin man accused of killing his daughter by praying instead of seeking lifesaving medical help considered her illness "a test of his faith," a prosecutor told jurors Saturday.

Dale Neumann, 47, is a "full-Gospel Christian," who did not know his 11-year-old daughter had diabetes, his defense attorney said. There's also not "a shred of evidence" Neumann knew his prayers would fail to help his daughter or cause her death, the lawyer said.

Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of his daughter Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents. His wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.

The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Prosecutors contend Neumann recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.

Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard scheduled opening statements during a rare Saturday court session to try to make sure the trial ended by Friday. An eight-man, six-woman jury begins hearing witness testimony Monday.

An Oregon jury on Thursday convicted a father of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. The father and mother were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.

Marathon County Assistant District Attorney Lance Leonhard stood next to a picture of a smiling Madeline Neumann on a large TV screen as he told the jury the sweet, mild-mannered child liked arts and crafts and loved her God.
"This case is not about parents having the right to raise their children as they see fit or the right to pray," he said. "This case is about Madeline Kara Neumann's needless suffering and death."

Her parents knew the child was gravely ill — they had used a large syringe to squirt chicken broth in her mouth to give her nourishment, Leonhard said. Still, he said, "They depended solely on God to heal her."
Dale Neumann told a Bible study friend he considered his daughter's illness "a test of his faith," Leonhard said.

No one can survive untreated diabetes, but medical statistics show 998 out of 1,000 people in the same stage of illness as Kara can be successfully treated with fluids and insulin, he said.

Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter told jurors the efforts of the ambulance attendants or doctors who eventually cared for Kara might have caused her death. It's also not certain the girl would have lived if she had gotten to doctors earlier, he said.

"Quite likely, what they would have done, the standard procedures, would have hastened her death because of the way diabetes was operating in her body," Kronenwetter said. "Not every tragedy is a crime."
Neumann tried to help his daughter, the defense attorney said.
"Dale Neumann solicited the help of numerous individuals to pray," Kronenwetter said. "He did that because of his faith, because he believed that was what would save his daughter."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...#ixzz2V2Z0Wax8


This happened in 2009. I firmly believe in faith and healing, but God gave us common sense. Here is an example of good motives without reason.
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  #87  
Old 06-02-2013, 04:24 AM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

This letter was written over 100 years ago, at the height of the Pentecostal Movement, which was already steeped in traditions of man and Sacred Cows. It demonstrates the difference in approaches to Divine Healing.

John G. Lake's Letter To Carrie Judd Montgomery

April 22, 1911
Mrs. Carrie Judd Montgomery,
Beulah Heights,
Alameda Co., Oakland, CA., U.S.A.

Dear Sister in Christ:
Enclosed find some letters with incidents etc., of what the Lord is doing among us. Rev. Stephenson has arranged for us with a friend, for the circulation of the letter which you find enclosed.

I regard it as a striking example of the force with which this Gospel comes to people of open mind, and was pleased to have a man of his caliber concerning the work.

Of course he viewed the work on a day when the Spirit of God was moving mightily. It was an extraordinary day therefore it is only fair to say that all our meetings do not have the same degree of power that was in that one. However, we praise God that He is moving strong and steady and clearly. I am reminded to write you through the reading of Mrs. Anderson's testimony as it appears in the "Triumphs of Faith".

I haven't a copy of a letter I wrote some time ago to a missionary by the name of Hoover, at Valparaiso, Chile, on the subject of divine healing which embodies what I regard as the secret of the aggressive ministry of healing that the Pentecostal Movement of South Africa demonstrates.
I do not know that I will be able to send you a copy of that letter at this time, but at my earliest convenience will have a copy prepared and send it to you.

I feel sister, that there is a step in this ministry in advance of what the (Pentecostal) Movement in general enjoys, and God has laid it deeply on my soul to present this particular phase of the exercise of the dominion of Jesus Christ, and that the secret of our success here in this ministry, is in our teaching our workers to exercise the dominion of God through the Holy Ghost, and that He has already put in their soul when He baptized them; while in other branches of this work they still follow largely the old line of intercession for the sick.

We do not pray for God to come and heal as in the old days. But, looking into His face, believing that He has baptized us in the Holy Ghost, and that we have received the power of God through that baptism, command in the Name of Jesus, the devil and his works to depart.


Nevertheless, dear sister, there are instances when God puts the Spirit of real intercession, even for the sick upon you.
I am convinced that there is a secret and better place of interceding for the sick, in exercising a dominion of God over the devil and his sicknesses, that when learned by the Pentecostal Movement, will put the ministry of healing miles in advance of where it is now.
"His name, through faith in His name hath made this man strong." "Such as I have, give I thee." "Aeneas, Jesus maketh thee whole." We have never caught the force of Jesus' words. "Proclaim liberty to the captive." "Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven."


It was through the healing of a young man from Detroit, Michigan, in your Faith Home at Buffalo, that my interest for this ministry was first captured. It was not until many years afterward when, through the teaching of John Alexander Dowie that I really grasped the thing so that the knowledge of the ministry became vital. And it was only after I had received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, that the dominion of God entered my soul, that compelled me to command sickness and the devil to leave, rather than to intercede with the Lord to take them away.

JGL/ ELW (John G. Lake / Emma Louise Wick )

Your brother in Christ,
John G. Lake
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  #88  
Old 06-02-2013, 06:45 AM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Posts: 2,485
Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrylyates View Post
This article is not meant to be discouraging, but an encouragement to be wise.

A Wisconsin man accused of killing his daughter by praying instead of seeking lifesaving medical help considered her illness "a test of his faith," a prosecutor told jurors Saturday.

Dale Neumann, 47, is a "full-Gospel Christian," who did not know his 11-year-old daughter had diabetes, his defense attorney said. There's also not "a shred of evidence" Neumann knew his prayers would fail to help his daughter or cause her death, the lawyer said.

Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of his daughter Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents. His wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.

The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Prosecutors contend Neumann recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.

Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard scheduled opening statements during a rare Saturday court session to try to make sure the trial ended by Friday. An eight-man, six-woman jury begins hearing witness testimony Monday.

An Oregon jury on Thursday convicted a father of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. The father and mother were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.

Marathon County Assistant District Attorney Lance Leonhard stood next to a picture of a smiling Madeline Neumann on a large TV screen as he told the jury the sweet, mild-mannered child liked arts and crafts and loved her God.
"This case is not about parents having the right to raise their children as they see fit or the right to pray," he said. "This case is about Madeline Kara Neumann's needless suffering and death."

Her parents knew the child was gravely ill — they had used a large syringe to squirt chicken broth in her mouth to give her nourishment, Leonhard said. Still, he said, "They depended solely on God to heal her."
Dale Neumann told a Bible study friend he considered his daughter's illness "a test of his faith," Leonhard said.

No one can survive untreated diabetes, but medical statistics show 998 out of 1,000 people in the same stage of illness as Kara can be successfully treated with fluids and insulin, he said.

Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter told jurors the efforts of the ambulance attendants or doctors who eventually cared for Kara might have caused her death. It's also not certain the girl would have lived if she had gotten to doctors earlier, he said.

"Quite likely, what they would have done, the standard procedures, would have hastened her death because of the way diabetes was operating in her body," Kronenwetter said. "Not every tragedy is a crime."
Neumann tried to help his daughter, the defense attorney said.
"Dale Neumann solicited the help of numerous individuals to pray," Kronenwetter said. "He did that because of his faith, because he believed that was what would save his daughter."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...#ixzz2V2Z0Wax8


This happened in 2009. I firmly believe in faith and healing, but God gave us common sense. Here is an example of good motives without reason.
'

Maybe we can get some of the home folk in here to talk about how this young girl was not healed because those praying were not Apostolic, weren't baptized in Jesus name, or didn't have holy magic hair. Because either they have NEVER seen any kind of weird stuff go on in a Pentecostal church, uh-uh, or if the Apostolics had been praying she would have been healed from that incurable diabetes!

I guess I was the only one of the 200+ people there actually listening, when just a few years ago I heard from a UPC pulpit that a woman brought her dead husband back to life by throwing her uncut hair over his chest, where his infarcted and still heart began to beat again, 'because' of her uncut hair. Hey why eat healthy and exercise to avoid a heart attack when you can just get a hair resurrection from one of your Apo sisters?

Of course I may be labeled a bitter, backslidden, worldly woman for having the audacity to mention it... Or that I bought the CD so I can prove it. Of course now that I'm willing to share my experiences it can be assumed that I must have been a nightmare for my previous pastor, total deadweight in my previous church home, etc. I believe that anyone with a functioning brain should be seeing right through this crazyness.

No discounting me as a person will change the fact that idiocy in the name of God goes on every day... and sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade no matter what anyone calls you back. It would just be nice if more people would call it before someone dies.

Since some of you know what church I came out of I do have to say right here that even my crazy old lyin', uncut hair lovin' pastor never asked anybody to stay away from doctors.... The more I read here the more I am ready to swear off religion forever.
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  #89  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:13 AM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
'

Maybe we can get some of the home folk in here to talk about how this young girl was not healed because those praying were not Apostolic, weren't baptized in Jesus name, or didn't have holy magic hair. Because either they have NEVER seen any kind of weird stuff go on in a Pentecostal church, uh-uh, or if the Apostolics had been praying she would have been healed from that incurable diabetes!

I guess I was the only one of the 200+ people there actually listening, when just a few years ago I heard from a UPC pulpit that a woman brought her dead husband back to life by throwing her uncut hair over his chest, where his infarcted and still heart began to beat again, 'because' of her uncut hair. Hey why eat healthy and exercise to avoid a heart attack when you can just get a hair resurrection from one of your Apo sisters?

Of course I may be labeled a bitter, backslidden, worldly woman for having the audacity to mention it... Or that I bought the CD so I can prove it. Of course now that I'm willing to share my experiences it can be assumed that I must have been a nightmare for my previous pastor, total deadweight in my previous church home, etc. I believe that anyone with a functioning brain should be seeing right through this crazyness.

No discounting me as a person will change the fact that idiocy in the name of God goes on every day... and sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade no matter what anyone calls you back. It would just be nice if more people would call it before someone dies.

Since some of you know what church I came out of I do have to say right here that even my crazy old lyin', uncut hair lovin' pastor never asked anybody to stay away from doctors.... The more I read here the more I am ready to swear off religion forever.
Actually, the Neumann's WERE UPC for well over a decade. This is the family that I helped move from one apartment to another back when we were in the church and living in the area. Dale went to (and met his wife) while going to bible college in Stockton, CA. I really lost any personal contact with them in the 90's but my dad continued to talk to them up to this incident with their daughter since they owned a coffee shop that he went to at least a few times a week.
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  #90  
Old 06-02-2013, 02:45 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Going to the doctor = sin????

It ever stuns me that people seem to always fall back to how horrible some standards type Apostolic Church was. I spent one year in that kind of Church 1981-82. I left because of outward standards myself.

What about the truth of Christ? I cant spend my life thinking how terrible that was. It was actually far closer to the truth in a general way than any of the Trinitarian Evangelical groups I was around.

Nonetheless there actually is a strong basis for spirit filled believers (no one else) to trust God for their healing. Yeshua encourages this. Its not that some bumpkin, simpleton, Pentecostal Preacher invented it.

Rather most of the time it is those who have child like faith to take God at his word, or they have exhausted all other means find how close God really is.



Its almost like many feel that the word of God is of no effect. Actually there are MANY testimonies among people who seek God alone for their healing where they actually DID get healed.

Obviously if someone dies it is a very hard thing. Im just pointing out that Churches I personally have been around have been blessed with God healing in many cases.

Any Church who emphasizes DOCTORS ARE A SIN.... are not really in the faith message.

The message is that Christ taught through him all things are possible. That he will answer prayer. That if we are sick we can with confidence call for the elders of the Church to pray for us.

Its not a mere rejection of the medical community. Its at best a pursuing of ones relationship with Christ. Seeking to know him and the faithfulness of his word.
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