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  #11  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:30 AM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Congruence is in the eye of the beholder.
i think congruent is a broad enough term to incorporate differences. surely there are differences between the ot and nt view of god, but i think the prophecies, the substance of ethical teaching and the ethnic identity or community of the believers is all consistent in both testaments. what are the differences that you see? i'm sure we can come up with some creative exegesis to explain them away.
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:40 AM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

What ever happened to the "shahada":"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet."

Doesn't that shoot a rather large hole in the 'all prophets are the same' theory?
Islam does NOT recognize Jesus Christ for who He is. It does elevate muhammed above all others.
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2013, 11:14 AM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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isaiah 53 and the letters of paul teach about the atoning death of jesus christ. the only sacrifice that can take away sin. that is the crucial doctrine of the bible and there are many allusions and prophecies by many authors. muhammad is one author and as far as i know doesn't make reference to this teaching except to say jesus didn't die on the cross. from the bible's view he is therefore a false prophet. if all muhammad witnessed to was faith, obedience, fasting, prayer and charity, why do we need him or the koran? the bible teaches all of those things. what is so special about the koran?
Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the "letters of Paul" no matter how far-fetched your logic has to go.

the (only) sacrifice that can take away sin

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6:14-15
Forgive, and you will be forgiven Luke 6
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself

(NOTE: these are the "old testament" laws that Jesus taught yet you exempt yourselves from )

Jesus did not teach what you teach so from if one takes the view that what Jesus taught and defined as salvation vs. what Paul (and you LOL) teach and define as salvation that would make Paul (and you?) the false prophets wouldn't it?

For extra credit: Name a passage where Jesus said "I am your saviour" or Jesus said "pray to me" or Jesus said "worship me" then explain why you teach these things that Jesus did not teach yet claim to teach them in his name?

Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 06-10-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2013, 11:45 AM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by larrylyates View Post
What ever happened to the "shahada":"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet."

Doesn't that shoot a rather large hole in the 'all prophets are the same' theory?
Islam does NOT recognize Jesus Christ for who He is. It does elevate muhammed above all others.
Is that so? What does this passage in the Quran mean to you?

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? Surah 3:144
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2013, 12:15 PM
larrylyates larrylyates is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
For extra credit: Name a passage where Jesus said "I am your saviour" or Jesus said "pray to me" or Jesus said "worship me" then explain why you teach these things that Jesus did not teach yet claim to teach them in his name?
Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 60:16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

No one but Jesus Christ fits these verses. There can be only One Almighty and Jesus is Lord.

Back at cha: If you accept Abraham and Moses as true prophets of God, what do you do with Ishmael. The Bible records the Covenant as being fulfilled in Isaac. God called him Abraham's only son! ishmael was excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant.

Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2013, 12:19 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the "letters of Paul" no matter how far-fetched your logic has to go.

the (only) sacrifice that can take away sin

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6:14-15
Forgive, and you will be forgiven Luke 6
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself

(NOTE: these are the "old testament" laws that Jesus taught yet you exempt yourselves from )

Jesus did not teach what you teach so from if one takes the view that what Jesus taught and defined as salvation vs. what Paul (and you LOL) teach and define as salvation that would make Paul (and you?) the false prophets wouldn't it?

For extra credit: Name a passage where Jesus said "I am your saviour" or Jesus said "pray to me" or Jesus said "worship me" then explain why you teach these things that Jesus did not teach yet claim to teach them in his name?
those are good points wii, i have yet to study paul's theology and how it is based on the scriptures. i have several books on order dealing with this subject, but from my memory of paul's writing, all of his theology is based on scriptures from the ot. i have more to study but thanks for pointing out these differences between the teachings of christ and paul. these are some books i have on order:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/030...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2013, 04:50 PM
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Timmy Timmy is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
i think congruent is a broad enough term to incorporate differences. surely there are differences between the ot and nt view of god, but i think the prophecies, the substance of ethical teaching and the ethnic identity or community of the believers is all consistent in both testaments. what are the differences that you see? i'm sure we can come up with some creative exegesis to explain them away.
Always!

OK, here's one. It is said that God is "just". This is the reason commonly given for hell's existence and for it being the final destination of some people. They deserve that punishment. But when you look at what those people "did" to deserve that punishment, God's justice (IMO) disintegrates.

At one level, the punishment is for sin. We all have sinned. And even the tiniest sin is so heinous (in God's view) that it is worthy of terrible punishment. That is already weird enough, but it gets better!

This is where apologists say "Ah, but God made a way of escape." And this is where I mention another level where our punishment is supposedly warranted: the only people in hell will be those who did not make use of the "way of escape". Namely, the people who heard the "good news" and didn't believe the people who told them about it -- ultimately didn't believe the people who wrote it into the books that later became "The Bible". (And then there are the billions who never even heard the "good news".)

So disbelieving what certain humans say is so evil that I will find myself in torment, and deserve it. Forever.

Mmmmkay. This is the Creator's "justice".
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Last edited by Timmy; 06-10-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-10-2013, 05:05 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

timmaay, i'm not getting into that, i'm very liberal in my view of god's justice, i believe if you live a good life you will go to heaven. "christ is the way" means living the values and ethics of christ. love, humility, helping the poor, caring for the sick, etc.
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  #19  
Old 06-10-2013, 06:13 PM
imreedemed imreedemed is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
timmaay, i'm not getting into that, i'm very liberal in my view of god's justice, i believe if you live a good life you will go to heaven. "christ is the way" means living the values and ethics of christ. love, humility, helping the poor, caring for the sick, etc.
Pal, you have to be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. There is only one way to the Father and that's through Christ Jesus!

Hell will be full of good people. Repent and accept Christ while you can
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  #20  
Old 06-11-2013, 06:21 AM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: Why Do Muslims Accept The Testimony of One Man

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Originally Posted by larrylyates View Post
Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 60:16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

No one but Jesus Christ fits these verses. There can be only One Almighty and Jesus is Lord.

Back at cha: If you accept Abraham and Moses as true prophets of God, what do you do with Ishmael. The Bible records the Covenant as being fulfilled in Isaac. God called him Abraham's only son! ishmael was excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant.

Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I did not ask you to quote from Genesis or Revelation or from the writings of Paul that were gathered by Constantine and his followers to exempt you from God's laws of worship and sacrifice that were established at the beginning of recorded time.

Here is what I asked and it was simple and straight:

Name a passage where Jesus said "I am your saviour" or Jesus said "pray to me" or Jesus said "worship me" then explain why you teach these things that Jesus did not teach yet claim to teach them in his name?

Here is what I think: The reason that you did not is because you can not. I can randomly pull passages from your own bible where Jesus deferred to God, Jesus prayed to God, Jesus fasted, Jesus practiced God's laws, and Jesus never DARED to put himself on an equal with God, just as the Quran teaches, and the bible teaches, and Paul (and you) do not teach.

Jesus: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus: And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

YOU: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. No one but Jesus Christ fits these verses"

The Quran:

“And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”

Who is the false prophet? Jesus, who deferred to the One who sent Him and the Quran who declares he was sent with a Gospel and admonition to those who fear God (or) you who declare he was not "sent" (in direct contradiction to what Jesus himself said) but was actually God Himself?
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