Signs of God's Coming

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pastor febus

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Yes, that world (age) did end with the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple. Read Matthew 24-25

If Luke 21 is kept in mind while interpreting Matthew 24, we can come to the conclusion that these events are yet future. Please address the passage from Luke posted on earlier.

Thanks.

[mfblume]

I just saw the latest additions to this thread. I will respond asap. Have a busy schedule today.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'll throw a wrench in things here. While I believe the Olivet Disourse covers the events of AD 70, I think Preterists fail to see something very important. Let's look at a part of the Olivet Discourse in Luke,

Luke 21:20-28
{21:20} And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with
armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
{21:21} Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart
out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
{21:22} For these be the days of vengeance, that all things
which are written may be fulfilled. {21:23} But woe unto
them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those
days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath
upon this people. {21:24} And they shall fall by the edge of
the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
{21:25} And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the
moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of
nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
{21:26} Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth: for the
powers of heaven shall be shaken. {21:27} And then shall
they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory. {21:28} And when these things begin to come
to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh.

I believe we see how Jesus warned the disciples that when THEY saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies THEY were to know that it’s desolation was nigh. For this reason Christians fled Jerusalem at the first sight of the Roman armies gathering to surround the city. It’s been said that because they heeded this prophecy not a single Christian perished in the siege of Jerusalem.

But then we read something interesting. Jesus then describes the subsequent events AFTER the siege. Christ states,

“{21:24} And they shall fall by the edge of
the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Jesus states that the surviving inhabitants of Jerusalem would be led away captive into all nations. This is known as the Diaspora. The Jewish survivors were led away captive from Judea and scattered across the Roman Empire. The Jews lived in this exile for nearly 2,000 years. This is why the Jews could be found in Germany and Russian during WWII. Jesus clearly said that this “Diaspora” would last “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” That means that Christ’s words would encompass all of history leading up to the resettlement of Judea by the Jews after the nation of Israel was established in 1948. This would mean that the “times of the Gentiles” began closing in May of 1948.

First of all, it is ironic you base the yet future fulfillment upon Luke 21, since futurists believe Luke 21 was AD70 but Matt 24 is not restricted to AD70.

Anyway, I fail to see the conclusion you are making based upon the above passages. Jesus simply said the Jews would be scattered. What is the point? The duration of the scattering is of no consequence.

Are you saying that after the scattering shall the sun and moon change appearance? Why is not simply saying that the Jews alive at that time would be scattered, and then the celestial phenommenon would occur, which I explained elsewhere was a figure of speech and apocalyptic language for the downfall of a kingdom.

The next statement given by Jesus leads us forward from 1948 to the present day…

{21:25} And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the
moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of
nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
{21:26} Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth: for the
powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Here we are told that from 1948 until the Second Coming we’d see mysterious astrological phenomena,

Why do you insist this is not until 1948 and onward?

Indeed the disciples’ generation saw those things “begin to come to pass” in AD 70, thus fulfilling all written in Luke 21:20-24. However, they are not specifically told here in Luke that they would see the events following the Diaspora leading up to our present day.

But THIS GENERATION refers to people alive at that time.

Luk 21:28 CEV When all of this starts happening, stand up straight and be brave. You will soon be set free.

Jesus told those people ALL those things would occur in their generation. In their lifetimes.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

First of all, it is ironic you base the yet future fulfillment upon Luke 21, since futurists believe Luke 21 was AD70 but Matt 24 is not restricted to AD70.

That’s a gross generalization. Futurists might believe that the desolation of Jerusalem depicted in Luke took place in AD 70…but the events depicted after the “times of the gentiles” in Luke are seen as yet future.

Anyway, I fail to see the conclusion you are making based upon the above passages. Jesus simply said the Jews would be scattered. What is the point? The duration of the scattering is of no consequence.

I disagree. Jesus said,
[indent]Luke 21:24
{21:24} And they shall fall by the edge of
the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.[/quote]

Notice that Jesus describes the Diaspora of AD 70. Then Christ makes the statement, “…until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. This is an important implication. Christ implies that they will be scattered and that Jerusalem will be trodden down UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. That implies that there will come a time when the Jews will no longer be scattered and Jerusalem will no longer be trodden down. When we see the Jews back in control of Jerusalem… the times of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled. We didn’t see the Jews return and the Gentile powers over Jerusalem end in AD 70… therefore this MUST be future from a first century perspective.

Are you saying that after the scattering shall the sun and moon change appearance? Why is not simply saying that the Jews alive at that time would be scattered, and then the celestial phenommenon would occur, which I explained elsewhere was a figure of speech and apocalyptic language for the downfall of a kingdom.

Yes and no. The Magi (Persian astrologers) noted astrological phenomena that indicated Christ’s birth. Why wouldn’t Christ’s second coming be any different? This could be depicting solar and lunar eclipses at pivotal moments, pointing to his return. Even Islam believes that a lunar eclipse will take place on the first day of Ramadan and then a solar eclipse will take place half way through Ramadan to herald the coming of the Islamic Al-Mahdi.

Those who are aware of the astrological significance of God’s “clock in the stars” (modern Magis) will most likely see indicators that a great event is about to transpire. Exact timing will most likely remain a mystery.

Why do you insist this is not until 1948 and onward?

Because it wasn’t until 1948 that Jewish power was restored over Jerusalem and the times of Gentile domination ended.

But THIS GENERATION refers to people alive at that time.

Luk 21:28 CEV When all of this starts happening, stand up straight and be brave. You will soon be set free.

Jesus told those people ALL those things would occur in their generation. In their lifetimes.

Notice Jesus says,

Luke 21:28
{21:28} And when these things begin to come
to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh.

Notice Jesus said, “when these things BEGIN to come to pass”. Jesus never said they would see the fullness of all that was spoken here. They saw the beginning in AD 70. Notice Christ’s language changes in regards to future events,
[INDENT]Luke 21:26-28
{21:26} Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth: for the
powers of heaven shall be shaken. {21:27} And then shall
THEY see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory. {21:28} And when these things begin to come
to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh.[/QUOTE]

Notice Jesus didn’t say, “And then shall YOU see the Son of Man coming…” Christ is speaking of a future generation. Like two mountain peaks with a valley between them…they look like close events….but are many centuries apart.

[Aquila]

No response???

[bshrader32]

God is coming back after a people who has made himself ready without wrinkle,spot,or blemish....the word says not one sin will enter into the kingdom of heaven.holiness without which no man shall see the lord!!!!!!!! The word says you must be born again or u cannot see the kingdom of god and that ye must be born of water and of the spirit or ye cannot enter into the kingdom of god.....god says without the spirit u r none of his......jesus is reaching out his hand for people today but they r not accepting him....jesus is warning the people but they r not taking heed tohis warnings....just as in the days of noah"noah warned the people that the flood was coming but they would not listen.....people today r the same way they have blinded eyes and deafened ears and have hardened their hearts against truth.....but in the end the day of judgement those that would not accept the truth and accept the true plan of salvation peter preached on day of pentacost,and keep all the commandments,and living the holy life will all be judged accordingly to the word of god. I pray we r raptured out before the day that god pours out his wrath among those people.

[Seascapes]

Go to this website and see just how many earthquakes in the last 7 days in the world. It was interesting to me to see this list.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquak...quakes_all.php

I watched the History channel last night at 9:00 and these men were telling about America's doom, economy, water, government....it was interesting. I believe Jesus is coming to take His children out of here soon. We need to see the signs of His coming.

[Seascapes]

Quoted "The Magi (Persian astrologers) noted astrological phenomena that indicated Christ’s birth. Why wouldn’t Christ’s second coming be any different?"

Let's don't wait until after He returns......The wise men did not get the sign until after HE came. The star appeared when the LIGHT was born. It took them about two years to follow that LIGHT to find the King of Kings. We are to be wise men and women today, and seek the LIGHT of the Truth, by His Word, and follow Him until He returns for us. To save us from the wrath to come. Jesus is our Salvation.

The difference between the first (born in the flesh) and His return, is FAITH, that we believe what He said, and believe what His apostles said (John 17) More blessed is the ones that believe and have not seen.