Bishop SC Johnson

[Sam]

Martha: "The reason I have not found anyone preaching the truth is because their preaching does not agree with what the written word says.

But Bishop Johnson's preaching did agree with the written word?

What formula did Bishop Johnson insist on in performing the baptism ritual?

[warrior]

Martha, you see the word of God and just because BJ said no son of God in heaven, you believe it in spite of seeing the actual word of God. WOW!

[Ferd]

Martha: "The reason I have not found anyone preaching the truth is because their preaching does not agree with what the written word says.

That is a flat cop-out!

there are preachers all over the country who preach the unadulterated word of God! martha take your deadguy glasses off and use the word alone as the filter.

[martha]

Martha, are you saying that GOD is UNABLE to impart truth to another man other than Bishop Johson? Please answer.

Martha: You should know better than that. I'm not saying that God is UNABLE to do anything that He wants to do. Look, God has HIS OWN WAY OF DOING THINGS and we don't tell Him how to do it. He sends whomever he will. He sent the twelve plus Paul and those designated by the apostles to the whole world in a time when there was no modern travel or modern communications as we have today. Why didn't he send thousands, especially then when travel and communications were different than they are today? Because that was not His plan.He opened the understanding of the twelve and gave Paul his doctrine by revelation. Unless God opens our understanding there's no possible way that we can understand the scripture. People even go wrong with "clear" scripture when leaning to their own understanding without the understanding given by God. Let's just be honest, everyone preaching today does not have the understanding given by God. Like the Bererans, I study to see if the things that's preached are so.


You said that no one has preached truth before or after Bishop Johnson.
According to you only Bishop Johnson's faithful members are going to heaven. You can't possibly believe that God is that small.

Martha: I am not the judge of who's going to heaven or hell, so it's nothing according to me but according to the judgment of God. Those who have heard Bishop Johnson are going to be responsible for having heard the truth and will be accountable to God for it. What of those who have not heard? What of those who never heard the original twelve plus Paul who died in the first century and on up until the time Bishop Johnson started preaching truth? All those people will be judged according to what they did know of God. But it's God who judges The book of revelations tells us of the judgements of God and who will appear where in the judgement. It's not in sequence and not easily understood. But there is a place where everyone will appear to be judged according to the judgments of God. Not everyone appears in the same place. This gives us some idea of how God will separate those who knew and those who knew not. I don't see God as small at all.

[ReformedDave]

Martha: I am not the judge of who's going to heaven or hell, so it's nothing according to me but according to the judgment of God. Those who have heard Bishop Johnson are going to be responsible for having heard the truth and will be accountable to God for it. What of those who have not heard? What of those who never heard the original twelve plus Paul who died in the first century and on up until the time Bishop Johnson started preaching truth? All those people will be judged according to what they did know of God. But it's God who judges The book of revelations tells us of the judgements of God and who will appear where in the judgement. It's not in sequence and not easily understood. But there is a place where everyone will appear to be judged according to the judgments of God. Not everyone appears in the same place. This gives us some idea of how God will separate those who knew and those who knew not. I don't see God as small at all.


Get the koolaid..........

[freeatlast]

Martha: I am not the judge of who's going to heaven or hell, so it's nothing according to me but according to the judgment of God. Those who have heard Bishop Johnson are going to be responsible for having heard the truth and will be accountable to God for it. What of those who have not heard? What of those who never heard the original twelve plus Paul who died in the first century and on up until the time Bishop Johnson started preaching truth? All those people will be judged according to what they did know of God. But it's God who judges The book of revelations tells us of the judgements of God and who will appear where in the judgement. It's not in sequence and not easily understood. But there is a place where everyone will appear to be judged according to the judgments of God. Not everyone appears in the same place. This gives us some idea of how God will separate those who knew and those who knew not. I don't see God as small at all.

Seek help...... professional help....psyhciatric.

Beware the kool-aid.

[TRFrance]

Martha: "The reason I have not found anyone preaching the truth is because their preaching does not agree with what the written word says.
Johnon said he was the last apostle? Where in the written Word of God does it say that? Please share that verse of scripture with us.

The written Word of God says nothing about Bishop Johnson being the last apostle. That's some man-made stuff.

[TRFrance]

No more apostles after Johnson? Where's the scripture for that?
No pastors/overseers today? Where's the scripture for that?
No prophets? Where's the scripture for that?

Find me the scriptures for that, and then we can really talk. But at this point, this stuff you're telling me is not just unbiblical, but anti-biblical.

Martha: Find me a preacher who preaches what Bishop Johnson preached and then we can really talk.
There's the difference right there.
I'm using the scriptures as my final authority...
and you're using "what Bishop Johnson preached" as your final authority.

That says it all right there.

[martha]

The Holy Temple Church preaches Bishop Johnson's doctrine totally. Check them out.

Where is this church located?

[martha]

There's the difference right there.
I'm using the scriptures as my final authority...
and you're using "what Bishop Johnson preached" as your final authority.

That says it all right there.

Martha: I saw no scripture quoted by you that Bishop Johnson was not the last apostle to come before the coming of Jesus Christ. What was it? And that says nothing as far as proving your point.

[martha]

Seek help...... professional help....psyhciatric.

Beware the kool-aid.


Martha: What do YOU know about the final judgement, hot shot? Run it by us.

[Sam]

give me some time, here, I'm looking.....

[martha]

But Bishop Johnson's preaching did agree with the written word?

What formula did Bishop Johnson insist on in performing the baptism ritual?


Martha: Sam, I wouldn't call it a formula. I don't believe Jesus Christ ever referred to his name as a "formula." But He did insist that His name be recognized, honored as no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved, and taken in water baptism and spirit baptism so His name is of premiere importance. For instance, you call yourself Sam; Sam who? What distinguishes your name, Sam, from every other person in the world named Sam? You've read the book of Acts. You know how the apostles baptized. You know the commandment. Bishop Johnson preached this same thing. And you also know that Bishop Johnson preached that Father Son and Holy Ghost is not the "name" of the Son of God who is also God Almighty.

[TRFrance]

Martha: I saw no scripture quoted by you that Bishop Johnson was not the last apostle to come before the coming of Jesus Christ. What was it? And that says nothing as far as proving your point.
No, my sister. That's not how it works.

I'm not the one making the assertion [that he's the last apostle] .
YOU are.

Thus, you are the one who should be able to show that your assertion is scriptural.

I asked you previously to give us bible verses on which you base your teaching of " no more apostles, prophets, pastors, etc. after Johnson".
As far as I can see, you still havent given us any such such scriptures.

But of course, you cant show any such thing scripturally. Deep down, you and I both know that. Apparently, you simply believe it because Johnson said it. Period. (...never mind the fact that such a claim doesn't line up with scripture.)

[Sam]

Martha: Sam, I wouldn't call it a formula. I don't believe Jesus Christ ever referred to his name as a "formula." But He did insist that His name be recognized, honored as no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved, and taken in water baptism and spirit baptism so His name is of premiere importance. For instance, you call yourself Sam; Sam who? What distinguishes your name, Sam, from every other person in the world named Sam? You've read the book of Acts. You know how the apostles baptized. You know the commandment. Bishop Johnson preached this same thing. And you also know that Bishop Johnson preached that Father Son and Holy Ghost is not the "name" of the Son of God who is also God Almighty.

Martha,
I know the words "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Ghost" are not names but neither are "Lord" and "Christ." It is my understanding, and I may be mistaken, that Bishop Johnson insisted that all three words "Lord Jesus Christ" had to be spoken at water baptism and that if the title "Lord" or the title "Christ" was not used, the person had to be rebaptized using the threefold formula "Lord Jesus Christ." Am I correct in this or do you not know for sure? What words have you heard spoken at baptisms?

[martha]

Martha, you see the word of God and just because BJ said no son of God in heaven, you believe it in spite of seeing the actual word of God. WOW!

I invited all on this board to key in the name Bishop S. C. Johnson and a web site will come up called Apostolic ministries of America, Inc. More than one site will come up with that name. Click on the site that says "In Memory of Bishop S. C. Johnson" and scroll down to the Bishop Johnson sermons. Click on the one that says No Son of God in Heaven Now Part I. You can't hear part II because those tapes are probably over 50 years old. Listen for yourself out of the mouth of Bishop Johnson.

Your understanding of Jesus ascending and sitting down on the right hand of the father is erroneous. Apostle Paul didn't say "Without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness" for nothing.

[warrior]

Martha,

Check it out!
http://theholytemplechurch.org/

[martha]

Martha,

Check it out!
http://theholytemplechurch.org/

I looked over the web site and noted that the church is a spin off of Bishop Johnson's church. An apostle does not learn from another apostle but gets his revelation directly from God. So this man is not an apostle and I don't see where he claims to be an apostle. I noted the 21 burning subjects listed on this web site which is a publication published by Bishop Johnson years ago. From appearance it appears that he preaches what Bishop Johnson preached but I didn't see anything on this site about divorce and remarriage.

[warrior]

I looked over the web site and noted that the church is a spin off of Bishop Johnson's church. An apostle does not learn from another apostle but gets his revelation directly from God. So this man is not an apostle and I don't see where he claims to be an apostle. I noted the 21 burning subjects listed on this web site which is a publication published by Bishop Johnson years ago. From appearance it appears that he preaches what Bishop Johnson preached but I didn't see anything on this site about divorce and remarriage.

Please don't make excuses not to accept that you can fellowship and have a living pastor. There are those who are preaching the exact same thing that Bishop Johnson is preaching. Maybe one doesn't call themselves an apostle, why is that mandatory for you to have a living pastor. If he is preaching the same thing that you believe, what is the problem? There should be no problem if the teaching aligns with your teaching.

You have no one to anoint you will oil to pray for you when you are sick.

You have no one ordaining elders as scriptures as told us to do.

You have no one counseling you.

You have no one establishing the truth as you claim it is. You aren't erecting churches to bring in the lost.

You have no one who has a vision therefore the people perish.

Is it that you want an excuse not to have accountability to a living pastor to watch for your soul? Honey, you have no one to watch for your soul as the scripture tells us to.

Their teaching on marriage is the same as Bishop Johnson's I promise. Why don't you call the church and speak to Bishop Green. He will be more than happy to to speak with you. Or better yet, why don't you go to the church hear the message and talk with him afterwards.

At this point you have no excuse not to have a living pastor. You have seen people who teach the exact same thing as Bishop Johnson. Now, what are you going to do?

[martha]

But Bishop Johnson's preaching did agree with the written word?

What formula did Bishop Johnson insist on in performing the baptism ritual?

Martha: I was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38. That's how we baptize in this church. Bishop Johnson drew a sharp distinction between baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ and in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, sprinkling, accepting Jesus where you are by holding up a finger, or anything else other than water baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ. He also authorized baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus or the name of Jesus Christ. If you found that web site and that sermon called "No Son of God in Heaven Now", he also discusses the baptism and addresses this issue.

[martha]

Please don't make excuses not to accept that you can fellowship and have a living pastor.

When did you hear me make excuses not to fellowship? Didn't you see my post that my husband is also baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and of the sister with tapes of most of the sermons Bishop Johnson preached and which we all share. In addition to that, my natural sister, and brother in law are also members of Bishop Johnsons's church and have been for many years. Didn't Jesus say where two or more are gathered in my name I will be in the midst of them? Didn't Jesus say he who worships me must worship me in spirit AND IN TRUTH. Worship without truth is in vain as you well know.


There are those who are preaching the exact same thing that Bishop Johnson is preaching.

Martha: How do you know that? Have you been to any of those churches and heard more than one sermon in them?
Believe me, you have to get to know a church before you can make that determination. I don't know what this man is preaching because I've never heard of this man. Let me tell you something, just because you have spin offs from Bishop Johnson's church does not mean that they're preaching "everything" that Bishop Johnson preached or have the knowledge that he had. If you learn something from a person that does not mean that you know "everything" that person knows or have the spiritual judgement and gift of interpretation that person has. For instance, I spoke with a bishop who came out of bishop Johnson's church regarding a person who had been baptized for the second time in the name of Jesus Christ because that person wanted to have "a good conscience". I asked this bishop about it and he told me it was okay, in this man's case. Now I know better than that. NO ONE is baptized twice in the name of Jesus Christ. In fact, it's sin to be baptized twice in the name of Jesus Christ. The ONLY reason for a person to be baptized more than once is because they were not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ the first time. I'm not at all convinced that this bishop you're speaking of is preaching the same thing that Bishop Johnson preached because I don't know that bishop but just because he appears to be a spin off that came out of Bishop Johnson's church does not mean he's preaching truth. You don't get it. Just as apostasy came in after the death of the first apostles, the same thing happened with the death of Bishop Johnson. A live pastor is no big deal to me when I have all I need right where I am. There's nothing NEW to be preached and if anyon has anything new, it's in error.


Maybe one doesn't call themselves an apostle, why is that mandatory for you to have a living pastor.

Martha: I wasn't making the point that he had to be an apostle. I was making the point that I know of no other apostle since Bishop Johnson died. Again a living pastor has no different word than what's written and most likely he does not have that.

If he is preaching the same thing that you believe, what is the problem? There should be no problem if the teaching aligns with your teaching.

Martha: He has the principles, according to the web site, but there's more to hearing truth than the principles as my example above with the man being baptized twice in the name of Jesus Christ. That's rank error. There's a lot that comes in between the priciples. In fact, Apostle Paul tells us to leave the principles of the doctrine and go on to perfection. Bishop Johnson preached the gospel in its fullness. Why should I search out someone that I know nothing about who most likely is not preaching THE WHOLE TRUTH. I don't know what his position is on divorce and remarriage because I didn't see that on the web site. This is one of the main errors in the churches today. Man just has to make allowance for second, thrid, fourth and so on companions while their first husband/wife lives and think they can justify it with the scriptures. There's much more to preaching truth than you SEEM TO know.

You have no one to anoint you will oil to pray for you when you are sick.

Martha: Yes, I do

You have no one ordaining elders as scriptures as told us to do.

Martha: But are your elders preaching truth?

You have no one counseling you.

Martha: You don't know what I have. But the answer to that would also be, "yes I do."

You have no one establishing the truth as you claim it is. You aren't erecting churches to bring in the lost.

Martha: The truth has already been established. There is no more truth to be established. You seem to think that the word changes. How many churches has your establishment erected? And the church is not the building; it's the people. And if you know anything about Bishop Johnson's congregations, you would know they they were small congregations, even when he was living. He just had more churches. You don't find masses of people running to hear the truth; they run AWAY FROM THE TRUTH.

You have no one who has a vision therefore the people perish.

Martha: Perhaps you don't have that. There will always be those who will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears and will turn away their ears from the truth and be turned unto fables.

Is it that you want an excuse not to have accountability to a living pastor to watch for your soul? Honey, you have no one to watch for your soul as the scripture tells us to.

Martha: Your false prophets can't watch for their own souls, let alone yours. You'd best be watching for yourself. Didn't the scripture TELL YOU TO WATCH!

Their teaching on marriage is the same as Bishop Johnson's I promise. Why don't you call the church and speak to Bishop Green. He will be more than happy to to speak with you. Or better yet, why don't you go to the church hear the message and talk with him afterwards.

At this point you have no excuse not to have a living pastor. You have seen people who teach the exact same thing as Bishop Johnson. Now, what are you going to do?

Martha: I'm going to do exactly as I've been doing although I might check him out. How do you come to know of this church? And since you speak against Bishop Johnson, how can you recommend this church if it's exactly the same?

[martha]

That is a flat cop-out!

there are preachers all over the country who preach the unadulterated word of God! martha take your deadguy glasses off and use the word alone as the filter.

Martha: Would you even know the unadulterated word of God?

[warrior]

Matrha, all of your excuses have been nailed to the cross. Go find a living pastor.

[martha]

Please don't make excuses not to accept that you can fellowship and have a living pastor. There are those who are preaching the exact same thing that Bishop Johnson is preaching. Maybe one doesn't call themselves an apostle, why is that mandatory for you to have a living pastor. If he is preaching the same thing that you believe, what is the problem? There should be no problem if the teaching aligns with your teaching.

You have no one to anoint you will oil to pray for you when you are sick.

You have no one ordaining elders as scriptures as told us to do.

You have no one counseling you.

You have no one establishing the truth as you claim it is. You aren't erecting churches to bring in the lost.

You have no one who has a vision therefore the people perish.

Is it that you want an excuse not to have accountability to a living pastor to watch for your soul? Honey, you have no one to watch for your soul as the scripture tells us to.

Their teaching on marriage is the same as Bishop Johnson's I promise. Why don't you call the church and speak to Bishop Green. He will be more than happy to to speak with you. Or better yet, why don't you go to the church hear the message and talk with him afterwards.

At this point you have no excuse not to have a living pastor. You have seen people who teach the exact same thing as Bishop Johnson. Now, what are you going to do?

Martha: Okay, I took a closer look at this web site. Bishop Belton Green does indeed claim to be an apostle but yet, he uses Bishop Johnson's publications as "His" literature. An apostle does not use another man's revelations. I could do that myself but does that make me an apostle? No, it makes me one who has learned from another. I listened to the three sermons posted on the site. What can I say? Pitiful! I can "read" the scripture for myself. Bishop Green essentially "reads" the scripture. I could have preached (READ) those sermons myself, God forbid! Anyone who can read could have preached those sermons. There was no elucidation or enlarging on them, just plain "reading the scripture." And this man calls himself AN APOSTLE! Well, I'll say one thing, you can't possibly go wrong by just "reading the scripture." It's when you begin to interpret the scripture that error comes in. It appears that this man was taking no chances on that, as well he should have done.

It's one thing to have LEARNED THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE FROM THE REAL APOSTLE and quite another to KNOW EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN that would enable you to do more than just 'READ'. If this is the stock and store of Bishop Belton Green, I'm far better off to listen to my tapes of Bishop Johnson and READ FOR MYSELF. I already know THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE. That this man calls himself an apostle is bogus. If he's an apostle, I'm an apostle based on what I heard on his web site.

[martha]

Matrha, all of your excuses have been nailed to the cross. Go find a living pastor.

Martha: The only thing that's been nailed to the cross is the bogus claim of apostleship by Bishop Belton Green. He and all like him who have learned the principles of the doctrine from Bishop Johnso, knowing little or nothing else, and then gone out and started THEIR OWN CHURCHES, calling themselves apostles, and ordaining others just like themselves are in violation of the scripture. Rev. 2:2 Don't you know what an apostle is?

[warrior]

I have seen your definition of an apostle and it is WRONG. An apostle is someone who walked with God.

I haven't seen SCJ walk with God, so he is in the same category as those others who you say claim to be an apostle.

Martha, you and your co-Johsonites are out of order. Come out of your idol worship and worship Jesus. FIND A PASTOR LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS.

[Ferd]

Martha: Would you even know the unadulterated word of God?

I read it on a daily basis. and Marth, you dont need to start each post with Marth:

it isnt necessary we know its you.


and one more thing. Dead men cannot expound on the unadultrated word of God.... because they are DEAD.

[warrior]

That is the mistake that Martha is making. She thinks she and her fellow worshippers are the only ones who have truth. Hence, the reason it is thought that there is no living preacher who can preach truth to them. So SAD!

[Ferd]

That is the mistake that Martha is making. She thinks she and her fellow worshippers are the only ones who have truth. Hence, the reason it is thought that there is no living preacher who can preach truth to them. So SAD!

sad.

dead men are blind and we all know what happens to the people when the leader has no vision.

[citizen]

Martha: The only thing that's been nailed to the cross is the bogus claim of apostleship by Bishop Belton Green. He and all like him who have learned the principles of the doctrine from Bishop Johnso, knowing little or nothing else, and then gone out and started THEIR OWN CHURCHES, calling themselves apostles, and ordaining others just like themselves are in violation of the scripture. Rev. 2:2 Don't you know what an apostle is?

Could you go to churches that have Bishop Johnson's teachings if they dont proclaim to be apostles?

I think some of these men were ordained by Bishop Johnson to preach while he was alive. Would they be wrong in continuing to preach Bishop Johnson's teachings to a congregation?

[warrior]

I don't understand what the problem is if the are teaching the exact same thing Bishop Johnson did.

I know for a fact the Holy Temple teaches the same thing Bishop Johnson taught in spite of what Martha uses as an excuse. You have been programmed to believe this. Honey, God is able to help you.

These are all excuses not to pursue a pastor. These are all excues to declare everyone is wrong except for you and yours. These are all excuses!!!! God has never been that small that he would have a dead man preaching to an entire world, and only a small elite few get to hear the truth. Just think about the logic in that. God would that none perish and he would put the responsibility on a dead man to preach salvation to the millions of the world. That is why there is one body but many members to that one body.

Surely a God that can perform so many miracles can give someone other than a dead man the truth. Why do you put limits on God?

God is able to help you.

[warrior]

If Bishop Johnson was taught by God, why isn't anyone else able to be taught by God?

The Bible says that he has no respect of persons.

[Ferd]

My experience has been that when saints refuse to find a pastor because of some obscure or minor point of teaching they claim is more important than it really is, they do so because they dont want a pastor.

they dont want leadership.

It is a spirit of rebellion.

[martha]

I have seen your definition of an apostle and it is WRONG. An apostle is someone who walked with God.

I haven't seen SCJ walk with God, so he is in the same category as those others who you say claim to be an apostle.

Martha, you and your co-Johsonites are out of order. Come out of your idol worship and worship Jesus. FIND A PASTOR LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS.

Martha: Did Apostle Paul walk with God? No. But he got his knowledge of God through REVELATION. And didn't Apostle Paul repeatedly tell us that HE WAS AN APOSTLE. Yes, he did.

You just love the Bishop Johnson bashing, don't you? Listen, you can keep your so called apostle, female bishop/preacher, or whatever you have since what seems to be of premiere importance is that they're living, regardless of what they're preaching to you. It appears that truth takes a back seat to animation.

[warrior]

I am bashing your sitting around talking about Bishop Johnson is your pastor and he has been dead for more than 40 years. That is what needs to be bashed forever. By the way, I don't have any lady pastor. Wouldn't you like to think that I did!

Get a living pastor.

[martha]

From what I have heard, and I have listened to many, the preachers that started their own ministry after he died, preach what he preached and give honor to him during their radio sermons.

They seem to really love him and are now carrying on in his footsteps and have brought many people out of trinitarianism into the apostolic way of salvation.

Martha: These preachers who have started their own churches have learned from Bishop Johnson, they have the principles of the doctrine but leaving that, they're at a loss when left to their own devices/understanding.

[martha]

I am bashing your sitting around talking about Bishop Johnson is your pastor and he has been dead for more than 40 years. That is what needs to be bashed forever. By the way, I don't have any lady pastor. Wouldn't you like to think that I did!

Get a living pastor.

Martha: Your're carnal as the days are long. Back up and listen to yourself. When will you learn that the word belongs to God. It was never Bishop Johnson's. He just declared it. He's dead! The word he preached will never die!

[martha]

My experience has been that when saints refuse to find a pastor because of some obscure or minor point of teaching they claim is more important than it really is, they do so because they dont want a pastor.

they dont want leadership.

It is a spirit of rebellion.

Martha: Did you ever hear the phrase, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump"?

[warrior]

Bishop Johnson is dead and he isn't anyone's pastor any more. I know you want to believe that he is your pastor he is not. He is dead.

Go to Bishop Johnson and try to talk with him and see what he says. He can't speak.

[martha]

But Bishop Johnson's preaching did agree with the written word?

What formula did Bishop Johnson insist on in performing the baptism ritual?

Martha: Did you find the taped sermon that I mentioned about the method of baptism found on the tape entitled "No Son of God in Heaven Now"?

[martha]

If Bishop Johnson was taught by God, why isn't anyone else able to be taught by God?

The Bible says that he has no respect of persons.

Martha: Everyone wanting to preach to gospel and indeed everyone who is actually preaching the gospel are not called/sent from God. You should know that if God didn't send them they can only err. What else could they possibly do? And "I'm not the one" to be deceived by them. A sister that I fellowship with had a husband who insisted he was called to preach and struck out on his own and started his own church. His wife would never have anything to do with it. It was a source of contention for years. When he got sick, he repented on his death bed for having done it and confessed that God never sent him. Do you think that man was preaching all truth, other than the principles of the doctrine that he'd learned from Bishop Johnson? No he wasn't because he didn't know it. Preachers who came out of Bishop Johnson's church preach the principles of the doctrine and sound like they really know what they're talking about but a closer examination of them proves that the principles is all they know.

[martha]

I don't understand what the problem is if the are teaching the exact same thing Bishop Johnson did.

Martha: Based on what I heard on the three sermons that I listened to, this man is not hearing from God. He's reading.

I know for a fact the Holy Temple teaches the same thing Bishop Johnson taught in spite of what Martha uses as an excuse. You have been programmed to believe this. Honey, God is able to help you.

Martha: This pastor teaches the principles of the doctrine that was taught to him by way of Bishop Johnson. Surely you should be able to see that there's a huge difference in having been taught the principles by someone else and preaching the gospel out of your own head.

These are all excuses not to pursue a pastor. These are all excues to declare everyone is wrong except for you and yours. These are all excuses!!!! God has never been that small that he would have a dead man preaching to an entire world, and only a small elite few get to hear the truth. Just think about the logic in that. God would that none perish and he would put the responsibility on a dead man to preach salvation to the millions of the world. That is why there is one body but many members to that one body.

Martha: That's something you'll have to take up with God. I've got the truth and glad to have it. I can't tell you why he chose to dissiminate it as he did. Evidently you've heard Bishop Johnson's preaching and evidently you didn't believe it. And the responsibility has been placed on thirteen plus dead men before Bishop Johnson and that gospel that they preached perished from the earth for a season of 1900 years. Think about what happened to the gospel preached at pentecost before it's re-emergence and remember that which is done is that which shall be done. . . . .

Surely a God that can perform so many miracles can give someone other than a dead man the truth. Why do you put limits on God?

Martha: Neither you, nor I can limit God, nor can we force him to go where he has not foreordained.

God is able to help you.

Martha: Jesus said, my sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow.

[martha]

Bishop Johnson is dead and he isn't anyone's pastor any more. I know you want to believe that he is your pastor he is not. He is dead.

Go to Bishop Johnson and try to talk with him and see what he says. He can't speak.

Martha: Will you relent with the pastor thing! It's the word that's still alive.

[martha]

I read it on a daily basis. and Marth, you dont need to start each post with Marth:

it isnt necessary we know its you.


and one more thing. Dead men cannot expound on the unadultrated word of God.... because they are DEAD.

Martha: Well, so much for Peter and Paul.

[Ferd]

Martha: Well, so much for Peter and Paul.

I dont want Peter or Paul for my pastor. They are dead too.

Good reference points though... considering they WROTE the new testament.'


Your guy didnt write the NT. He didnt have any special insight beyond what any pastor may have. He was nothing more than a modern day preaher.

God knows we need modern day preachers. But God also knows we need right now pastors in our lives. Not dead guys.

Love ya martha, but until you deal with the fact that you are putting your salvation in the cold dead hands of a man who cannot save you, you will never really have all you can have in God.

I love Papa George Glass. from time to time I listen to an old sermon he preached. some of his old sermons I consider required listening to any preacher. But I dont want him for a pastor because he is dead.

I dont listen to his messages as though they are Cannon because he was just a modern day preacher.

He was a great man of God, anointed like no other I know of. Every preacher I know that knew him called him a pastors pastor. But he is dead. He cant pastor anyone.

[Sam]

Martha: I was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38. ...

What version of the Bible are you using?
The triune name "Lord Jesus Christ" is not found in Acts 2:38 in the King James Version.

[citizen]

Martha: These preachers who have started their own churches have learned from Bishop Johnson, they have the principles of the doctrine but leaving that, they're at a loss when left to their own devices/understanding.

What you seem to be missing is some of these preachers have been ordained by Bishop Johnson himself. They were taught by him and they teach what he taught them while he was alive. And they are still listening to his teachings.

Why would Bishop Johnson ordain these men to preach and be elders in the church if after he died they were to throw away their ordanation papers and stop being elders of the very assemblies that their Bishop placed them over?

Did he ever tell any of them to stop being elders once he died?

And you have never been ordained by Bishop Johnson. Why would you know more than Bishop Johnson's own elders? Isnt that questioning the judgment of the man you say is your bishop right now.

[TRFrance]

If the Johnsonites really understood this passage, they would stop their foolishness right away:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
The five-fold ministry is given to the church, the Body of Christ. Period. The 5-fold ministry didn't cease just because Bishop SC Johnson died.

The five-fold ministry reflects God's leadership structure for the body of Christ, a structure which will remain in place until Jesus comes back for His church. I challenge any Johnsonite to prove otherwise using the scriptures.

[warrior]

If the Johnsonites really understood this passage, they would stop their foolishness right away:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
The five-fold ministry is given to the church, the Body of Christ. Period. The 5-fold ministry didn't cease just because Bishop SC Johnson died.

The five-fold ministry reflects God's leadership structure for the body of Christ, a structure which will remain in place until Jesus comes back for His church. I challenge any Johnsonite to prove otherwise using the scriptures.

Amen!

[warrior]

Bishop Johnson is being given too much credit to to ever be mentioned in the Bible.

The Christian movement comes to a halt after his death....please!

[warrior]

People say that no one was waiting on Bishop Johnson's resurrection.
This poem was just republished on the internet in reference to Bishop Johnson's resurrection from the dead. There are those who are still expecting him to come alive again.

He'll Be Back"
(Dedicated to the Honorable Apostle Bishop S.C. Johnson who departed this life on February 22, 1961 in Kingston, Jamaica)
(The Whole Truth, April, 1961, page 10.)

Our Bishop has gone for a much needed rest.
His children all miss him, but God knew best.
He was tired and worn from many a days
Turning the people from their wicked ways.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

He preached and preached us out of sin,
Many not wanting, but had to come in
Believing this to be the only way
To escape that awful Judgment Day.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

Oh how he taught us to believe the Lord.
Don't trust man, but only God,
For He's the one that going to work;
The miracle that will bring him from the dirt.
THAT'S WHY IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

Some don't believe and some won't say
That he'll be back in our day.
But oh how I do believe the Lord.
That's why my heart is filled with joy.
BECAUSE HE'LL BE BACK.

God said to believe on Him as the scripture hath said.
Why think it incredible that He should raise the dead?
He made no exceptions nor called any name.
So if you don't believe this, your work is in vain.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

The false prophets are raging and showing themselves.
Still preaching and damning poor souls to Hell.
They think that now this is their chance
To give the people a song and a dance.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

False prophets stop raging and listen:
All of Bishop's words you'd better take heed.
You had nothing then and you have nothing now,
So come off the pulpit and obey Bishop Johnson.
... BECAUSE HE WILL BE BACK.

Saints of God in the Lord be strong,
Believing He'll raise the dead is nothing wrong.
He said "If thou shouldest believe.
The glory of God thou would see."
SO IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

His golden voice is yet in the land,
Preaching the gospel to every man.
Still telling the world just how to escape
Hell and damnation and that burning lake.
... BUT HE'LL BE BACK.

Saints of God continue to hold on
His promise is true, the victory is won.
Bishop said, "It's alright, the victory is ours."
So look and believe to the last hour.
HE'LL BE BACK.

[TRFrance]

Warrior, do you happen to know...

Did Johnson say he'd be back from the dead, or did this belief spring up after he died?

[warrior]

TR, I will search to see if I can find out. I think, don't quote me on it, that it may have started after he died.

Now, there are some things that Bishop Johnson said that makes it a little iffy about how profound he thought himself to be. For example, it is my understanding that he did tell people to listen to his tapes until Jesus came. I do think BJ was of the opinion that Jesus would be back during his life time. So, he didn't authorize people to listen to anyone excect for him. Even that poem reflects some of those beliefs.

[warrior]

TRFRANCE, read this and see what you think. It is categorized as faith.


LOOKING FOR THE RESURRECTION OF APOSTLE BISHOP S.C. JOHNSON

AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW by the late Minister Howard Davis, printed in The Whole Truth magazine, December 1961, page 8

There has been much dissension among a great many people who have a misunderstanding of the belief concerning the bodily resurrection of Bishop S.C. Johnson, the noble Apostle and man of God who fell asleep some days ago. He died in faith refusing to accept deliverance.

Many are speaking against our believing that he will rise before the last day. Yes, we are longing, hoping, praying and believing that God will raise him from the dead to again lead God’s people. However, we do not force anyone to believe this. This is our faith.

May I say to you that are murmuring, complaining and separating yourselves, in the language of the Bible (Galatians 5:21-23). There is no law anywhere against having faith. The privilege to have faith in God’s power is unlimited. Anyone who believes God is permitted to do so and what is more, whenever you believe God, you will see His glory. Therefore, saith the scripture, “AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.”

The permission to call again the dead to life or to lay on of hands or raise the dead, we admit, was granted to chosen men; but to have faith in God’s power and to trust in God completely, is granted to everyone and there is no law against it! If so, pray tell which scripture stated it and where is it found.

The three Hebrew boys, who were neither apostles or prophets, took a hold of faith against death itself and believing in God’s power, obtained the victory and were restored from the fiery furnace. Their faith delivered them. Mary and Martha according to the eleventh chapter of John were granted the opportunity to believe God. Jesus said to them: “IF THOU WOULDST BELIEVE, THOU SHOULDEST SEE THE GLORY OF GOD.” Neither Mary or Martha were prophetesses and could not be apostles, but there was no law against them believing God.

We believe God, for Jesus said. “WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.” Since then all things are possible and there is no law against believing God, then please tell us who are you to discourage our faith. If you don’t believe as we do keep quiet or encourage us to hold our faith. Why put a damper on faith? Why speak against faith? Why blaspheme faith? Why dispute about faith? Didn’t you know that there is no law against it? Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Faith overcomes the world. There are even some who have the gift of faith—can you condemn it? If so, please tell us how? We love our Apostle Bishop S.C. Johnson. We long for him. We look for him. We pray to God for him. We believe we shall see him again. Faith prompts us to do so. Faith makes us wait. Faith comforts us. Faith gives us peace. Faith lifts us up and gives us joy. Faith encourages us deeply. I’m asking you—IS THERE A LAW AGAINST FAITH? Remember, if you don’t hurry and give us a law against it, we’re going to fall back on what the Holy Ghost has said and repeat AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

So, you dissenters and disputers and ye of little faith, leave us alone and if we are overdoing it, or in folly, bear with us in our folly and remember that where there is no law, there is no transgression.

There is a law against lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, keeping the Sabbath, abstaining from meats, hatred, strife, envy, malice haughtiness, unthankfulness, lustfulness, emulation, covetousness, sedition, and murder—yes, against such there is a law; but thank God, there is no law against peace. I can have peace in abundance. I can love as much as I please. I may be meek as Moses or even Jesus. I may have all gentleness. I am permitted to have joy unspeakable and full of glory, and I am permitted to have as much faith as I want for against such there is no law.

SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES
Galatians 5:22-23
Daniel 3:13-30
Jeremiah 32:17
Genesis 18:14
Hebrews 11:6
Mark 11:23-24

[TRFrance]

So they're essentially saying that Johnson's rising from the dead is not a firm teaching they have, but more of a hope.

Well, at this point it all sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Someone may have to pardon me for my lack of faith here... but I think if God still hasn't raised the man now 48 years later, it's probably just not going to happen.

Frankly, I think Bishop Johnson would be appalled to see some of the present-day beliefs and practices of his followers he left behind.

[warrior]

TRFrance, I think he would be appalled too. I wouldn't say that he approved a lot of things going on.

[Sam]

So they're essentially saying that Johnson's rising from the dead is not a firm teaching they have, but more of a hope.

Well, at this point it all sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Someone may have to pardon me for my lack of faith here... but I think if God still hasn't raised the man now 48 years later, it's probably just not going to happen.

Frankly, I think Bishop Johnson would be appalled to see some of the present-day beliefs and practices of his followers he left behind.

I wonder who will come back first?
Bishop Johnson or Bill Branham?

[Sam]

What version of the Bible are you using?
The triune name "Lord Jesus Christ" is not found in Acts 2:38 in the King James Version.


Bump for Martha

[martha]

People say that no one was waiting on Bishop Johnson's resurrection.
This poem was just republished on the internet in reference to Bishop Johnson's resurrection from the dead. There are those who are still expecting him to come alive again.

He'll Be Back"
(Dedicated to the Honorable Apostle Bishop S.C. Johnson who departed this life on February 22, 1961 in Kingston, Jamaica)
(The Whole Truth, April, 1961, page 10.)

Our Bishop has gone for a much needed rest.
His children all miss him, but God knew best.
He was tired and worn from many a days
Turning the people from their wicked ways.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

He preached and preached us out of sin,
Many not wanting, but had to come in
Believing this to be the only way
To escape that awful Judgment Day.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

Oh how he taught us to believe the Lord.
Don't trust man, but only God,
For He's the one that going to work;
The miracle that will bring him from the dirt.
THAT'S WHY IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

Some don't believe and some won't say
That he'll be back in our day.
But oh how I do believe the Lord.
That's why my heart is filled with joy.
BECAUSE HE'LL BE BACK.

God said to believe on Him as the scripture hath said.
Why think it incredible that He should raise the dead?
He made no exceptions nor called any name.
So if you don't believe this, your work is in vain.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

The false prophets are raging and showing themselves.
Still preaching and damning poor souls to Hell.
They think that now this is their chance
To give the people a song and a dance.
... BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

False prophets stop raging and listen:
All of Bishop's words you'd better take heed.
You had nothing then and you have nothing now,
So come off the pulpit and obey Bishop Johnson.
... BECAUSE HE WILL BE BACK.

Saints of God in the Lord be strong,
Believing He'll raise the dead is nothing wrong.
He said "If thou shouldest believe.
The glory of God thou would see."
SO IT'S ALL RIGHT, HE'LL BE BACK.

His golden voice is yet in the land,
Preaching the gospel to every man.
Still telling the world just how to escape
Hell and damnation and that burning lake.
... BUT HE'LL BE BACK.

Saints of God continue to hold on
His promise is true, the victory is won.
Bishop said, "It's alright, the victory is ours."
So look and believe to the last hour.
HE'LL BE BACK.

Martha: Whoever wrote this poem is certainly deceived. Bishop Johnson told no one that he would come back from the dead. And Bishop Johnson is not responsible for ANYONE who would believe he would. I certainly never thought he would be resurrected from the dead nor do I know anyone who did.

[warrior]

This poem was alson printed in Bishop Johnson's Whole Truth Magazine. Therefore, more than the person who wrote this poem was deceived. Just food for thought.

[martha]

Bump for Martha

Martha: Sam Acts 2:38 says Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost. . . . . Acts 19 tells us that John's disciples were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The whole principle is to separate the name of Jesus Christ so as not to allow any other name under heaven to be compared to it or associated with the one of whom it speaks. The name of the Lord Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ is perfectly acceptable for baptism. Did you listen to that tape I told you about. No comments from you on that.

[martha]

Warrior, do you happen to know...

Did Johnson say he'd be back from the dead, or did this belief spring up after he died?

I can assure you Bishop John NEVER said he'd be back from the dead. What he did say was "When I'm gone, look for Jesus."

[martha]

TR, I will search to see if I can find out. I think, don't quote me on it, that it may have started after he died.

Now, there are some things that Bishop Johnson said that makes it a little iffy about how profound he thought himself to be. For example, it is my understanding that he did tell people to listen to his tapes until Jesus came. I do think BJ was of the opinion that Jesus would be back during his life time. So, he didn't authorize people to listen to anyone excect for him. Even that poem reflects some of those beliefs.

Bishop Johnson told EVERYONE who he knew he was, not though himself to be. He declared that he was an apostle, and so he was. And he declared that NO ONE WAS PREACHING THE TRUTH IN THE WHOLE WORLD before he came and that was true. And no one has preached the whole truth since he died. I don't know where you go to church but those who came out of Bishop Johnson's church declaring themselves to be apostles when they learned EVERYTHING THEY KNEW from Bishop Johnson are no apostles. One could sit under Bishop Johnson and learn what he preached but they will never have what was given to him because it was given by God to him. And because it was not given to them by God, THEY ERR. You can't have what God has given someone else if God did not also give it to you. Everyone wanting the more comely parts of the body are not ordained to be those parts nor can they properly function as those parts and when theY force themselves into those parts, they distort and disfigure the body of Christ. Now you know Christ knows how to assemble his own body and those parts that have forced themselves into it are like parasites who don't belong there and will be cut off. It's fine that these people who call themselves apostles know the principles of the doctrine but just because they know the principles does not make the ministers of the gospel, let alone apostles. When will you people ever learn that EVERYTHING IN THE PULPIT DOES NOT BELONG IN THE PULPIT, no matter what they call themselves. And better still, when will you ever learn how to tell the the difference?

On second throught, WHERE 'DO' you go to church?

[warrior]

Bishop Johnson told EVERYONE who he knew he was, not though himself to be. He declared that he was an apostle, and so he was. And he declared that NO ONE WAS PREACHING THE TRUTH IN THE WHOLE WORLD before he came and that was true. And no one has preached the whole truth since he died. I don't know where you go to church but those who came out of Bishop Johnson's church declaring themselves to be apostles when they learned EVERYTHING THEY KNEW from Bishop Johnson are no apostles. One could sit under Bishop Johnson and learn what he preached but they will never have what was given to him because it was given by God to him. And because it was not given to them by God, THEY ERR. You can't have what God has given someone else if God did not also give it to you. Everyone wanting the more comely parts of the body are not ordained to be those parts nor can they properly function as those parts and when theY force themselves into those parts, they distort and disfigure the body of Christ. Now you know Christ knows how to assemble his own body and those parts that have forced themselves into it are like parasites who don't belong there and will be cut off. It's fine that these people who call themselves apostles know the principles of the doctrine but just because they know the principles does not make the ministers of the gospel, let alone apostles. When will you people ever learn that EVERYTHING IN THE PULPIT DOES NOT BELONG IN THE PULPIT, no matter what they call themselves. And better still, when will you ever learn how to tell the the difference?

On second throught, WHERE 'DO' you go to church?


Martha, I will not be telling you where I go to church. Please know that I do have a living pastor who baptizes in Jesus name. That is all I will say about that.

You have already seen a million reasons why you need a living pastor and these poems have proven that even more. So, if you want to continue in your way...that is fine, but you have been told.

[citizen]

I don't know where you go to church but those who came out of Bishop Johnson's church declaring themselves to be apostles when they learned EVERYTHING THEY KNEW from Bishop Johnson are no apostles.

What do you have against the elders he ordained that having been taught by him are continuing in his doctrine? Are the congregations under their leadership in order? Could you attend their services? Are there any of his tapes recorded that teach against his elders (NOT calling themselves apostles) continuings as pastors of the churches they always were?

[warrior]

Citizen, you raise some very good questions.

[citizen]

Citizen, you raise some very good questions.

Have you heard many of these tapes? If you have, do any of them teach against his congregants attending churches of his elders?

[warrior]

Yes Citizen. I have heard many tapes and he doesn't discourage anyone from attending churches of those he ordained.

[martha]

If the Johnsonites really understood this passage, they would stop their foolishness right away:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
The five-fold ministry is given to the church, the Body of Christ. Period. The 5-fold ministry didn't cease just because Bishop SC Johnson died.
The five-fold ministry reflects God's leadership structure for the body of Christ, a structure which will remain in place until Jesus comes back for His church. I challenge any Johnsonite to prove otherwise using the scriptures.

Martha: Apostle Paul during his last and final imprisonment wrote 2nd Timothy. He wrote to Timothy knowing that he himself was soon to die and be no more on the earth nor preach the word, in the flesh, ever again. The world would hear his voice no more. 2nd Timothy is the LAST KNOWN WORDS OF APOSTLE PAUL. He wrote 2nd Timothy in the fall or winter of 67 A.D. and was beheaded in Rome in May or June of 68 A.D., a matter of a few months. He would be preaching no more. He would be writing no more epistles. It is said that 2nd Timothy could be considered Apostle Paul's LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT TO THE CHURCH. And what does Apostle Paul do IN HIS LAST LETTER TO THE CHURCH. HE WARNS THEM OF FALSE TEACHERS AND HE TELLS THEM TO CONTINUE IN WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED. Paul spoke of the coming apostasy and it came, even destroying the church, for a season. Yes, the church absolutely ceased to be after the first century. And what it came to was the Great Whore, (that sits upon many waters) the catholic church, who claims that Apostle Peter was their first bishop, and all the other harlots that are in the religious world. Bishop Johnson spoke of the apostasy that would come after his death, and it came, scattering and not sparing the true flock.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou has learned and has been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Read Apostle Paul's LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT TO THE CHURCH in the whole book of 2nd Timothy and then come back with the DEAD PREACHER argument. It was Apostle Paul's intention that the church continue through the teachings of those he had taught BUT we know that didn't happen, don't we? There was no five fold ministry. There was no ministry AT ALL. We know the true gospel of Jesus Christ ceased and laid dormant after the first century. Where is the five fold ministry today, it has ceased and lies dormant but God's word remains with those who heard Bishop Johnson preach it. So what can be said of those who have never heard? Bishop Johnson said those who have never heard the word will be judged according to what they do know. Does that mean that if they have been taught error and lived in error that they will be saved? All I can say about that is that God Almighty is the judge.

[martha]

Yes Citizen. I have heard many tapes and he doesn't discourage anyone from attending churches of those he ordained.

Who was preaching in those churches during the time that he lived because we know he hasn't preached any sermons since he died? And what happened to the gospel he preached after he died? Didn't it turn into apostasy? Yes, it did.

[martha]

Have you heard many of these tapes? If you have, do any of them teach against his congregants attending churches of his elders?

Bishop Johnson ordained elders, but most of the elders that he ordained was "sat down" by Bishop Johnson. I know of no elders today out of Bishop Johnson's church who are not calling themselves apostles.

Do you?

[warrior]

Martha, there are churches who are preaching the exact same thing that BJ preached and you know it. Your problem is that you think you can only hear from BJ. I am sorry to say again, that BJ is dead and won't be back again.

[martha]

Martha, I will not be telling you where I go to church. Please know that I do have a living pastor who baptizes in Jesus name. That is all I will say about that.

You have already seen a million reasons why you need a living pastor and these poems have proven that even more. So, if you want to continue in your way...that is fine, but you have been told.

Martha: I wonder why you "won't be telling me where yuo go to church", LOL< LOL< LOL, as if I didn't know. I have absolutely nothing to do with whoever wrote that poem. Perhaps you know this person but I don't and I never knew that poem existed. But don't post garbage and attribute it to all of Bishop Johnson's converts. That poem is not scriptural. It is not scriptural to believe that anyone is going to be resurrected, unless God wills them to be resurrected. And the apostolic folks I know have no such belief. Like I said, Bishop Johnson said that when he was gone "Look for Jesus."

[martha]

Martha, there are churches who are preaching the exact same thing that BJ preached and you know it. Your problem is that you think you can only hear from BJ. I am sorry to say again, that BJ is dead and won't be back again.

I told you that these preachers have the principles of the doctrine but little or nothing else. That leaves a very broad area in which to err. And I'm sorry to say that Apostle Paul said 'AFTER LEAVING THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE, GO ON TO PERFECTION." These preachers cannot take anyone to perfection because they don't know the way.

[citizen]

Bishop Johnson ordained elders, but most of the elders that he ordained was "sat down" by Bishop Johnson. I know of no elders today out of Bishop Johnson's church who are not calling themselves apostles.

Do you?


What do you mean? Are you saying there were NO elders he hand picked to pastor his churches throughout the country while he was alive were still pastors when he died? He removed everyone of them???

I guess this Bishop Johnson of yours did not have very good judgement.

[TRFrance]

The apostle Paul spelled out certain requirements & qualifications for a bishop. One of the most basic and obvious requirements for a bishop would be that he would be ALIVE!

There is NO scripture that says it's ok for folks to have a dead man as their bishop. I'm sorry, but that is just craziness.

[citizen]

I think I will chose to sit under the teachings of John the Apostle. I will find some people that will sit with me and read his writings and praise him as our apostle. And the rest of the world is hellish for not sitting under John as the last apostle sent by God.
John was taught by Jesus and he even touched Jesus and Jesus touched him.
I AM THE TRUE APOSTOLIC.

[warrior]

Citizen, what you said sounds a mess! You know the Johnsonites have already claimed the position as the true apostolics. Close your writings until you find a living pastor.

[martha]

I think I will chose to sit under the teachings of John the Apostle. I will find some people that will sit with me and read his writings and praise him as our apostle. And the rest of the world is hellish for not sitting under John as the last apostle sent by God.
John was taught by Jesus and he even touched Jesus and Jesus touched him.
I AM THE TRUE APOSTOLIC.

2nd Timothy 3:13-14

[martha]

Citizen, what you said sounds a mess! You know the Johnsonites have already claimed the position as the true apostolics. Close your writings until you find a living pastor.

We really don't know much about what you believe, do we--other than the fact that you don't like Bishop Johnson. As a matter of fact, we really don't know much about what anyone here believes other than their disapproval of Bishop Johnson.

[warrior]

I don't dislike BJ. There are just things that I disagree with about what he taught and what his current followers are doing.

I have already said that BJ was a man of integrity and that we should discuss his teachings. There is distinct difference in examining his teaching and not liking HIM.

[martha]

I don't dislike BJ. There are just things that I disagree with about what he taught and what his current followers are doing.

I have already said that BJ was a man of integrity and that we should discuss his teachings. There is distinct difference in examining his teaching and not liking HIM.

It's good that you don't dislike Bishop Johnson because he was a man of integrity and truth. His regard for the truth of the gospel was relentless, as you well know.

[warrior]

Martha, how you define his regard for truth is simply a matter of opinion.

[citizen]

I read somewhere that Bishop Johnson was ordained by a minister named Lawson. What happened to their relationship once Bishop Johnson became big? Does anyone know?

[warrior]

That proves that Bishop Johnson had a human teacher.

[citizen]

Well of course he did but what happened to their relationship?
You seem to know alot about the man. Did they stay in fellowship while Bishop Johnson was alive?

[warrior]

Well Citizen, people are of the belief that everything BJ knew he learned from God. We know that to be untrue because he had a leader that ordained him. Now, they began to have doctrinal differences later on and there was a split.

[gthaywood1880]

I read somewhere that they fellowshiiped don't know how often but Bishop Johnson died in February 1961 and Bishop R.C. Lawson died on June 30 of the same year. I also read that they would debate over the radio.

[gthaywood1880]

Bishop R.C. Lawson(1883-1961) was the founder of the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ in 1919. Bishop Johnson seperated from Lawson in 1930 and founded the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ because of these reason's the wearing of jewelry and makeup worn by women, the observance of Christmas,Easter, and Lent.

[Candle]

Praise the Lord. Bishop SC Johnson was the real thing . . . a true Apostle. He preached the gospel without regard to fame or favor, unlike Bishop Lawson, who dabbled in
politics and social causes. He was a true man of God. I consider myself to be blessed to have known him and heard him preach many, many times until his death in 1961.
Candle

[sis_perez]

What is wrong with cotton stockings? Bishop Johnson had his own type of dress code. And yes, there was definitely a difference between the way the women of his movement dressed and the way the world dressed. Bishop Johnson killed PRIDE from A - Z. If a woman is dead- Spiritually speaking- Nylon stockings would definitly add life- Yep- you know good and well the women like to show off their legs and show their flesh. People do things with an ungodly "spirit" which will Prompt PRIDE. And Bishop Johnson Killed Pride. His folks was seperate from worldly folks. You knew Bishop Johnsons women or women under elders that attempt to continue in the Apostolic Doctrine. Most women
today that are so called christian -- you cant tell. Why? There is no difference between the Holy and the unholy. They are all the same. Unholy!! The bible says to put a difference between them. So he was right. He made the rules for his organization and if people didnt want to be a part of it that was their choice. If you cant beat them as they say, then join them. The people were following his dress code, just obiediently obeying who had the rule over them, since they chose to follow his teachings. I mean how hard is that to understand? He preached the true word and what he bound on earth, God bound in Heaven. What he loosed on Earth, God loosed in Heaven. Also, People have their ideas and opinions, but cant no one, (well not that I know of) put their money were their mouth is like he did. He offered the entire religious world $500,000.00 to prove him wrong in one thing he preached. And as far as I know, nobody ever Got it. So I know the man was right and everyone that dont preach what he preached concerning the Apostolic Doctrine is wrong. If they dont preach what he preached, then they should be able to Certify what they preach with a Reward to anyone that can condemn just one thing that they preach with Bible. Also what is the 5% that the Holy Temple teach that is different from Bishop Johnsons teachings. I was thinking of visiting them. PAZ!

[RandyWayne]

What is wrong with cotton stockings? Bishop Johnson had his own type of dress code. And yes, there was definitely a difference between the way the women of his movement dressed and the way the world dressed. Bishop Johnson killed PRIDE from A - Z. If a woman is dead- Spiritually speaking- Nylon stockings would definitly add life- Yep- you know good and well the women like to show off their legs and show their flesh. People do things with an ungodly "spirit" which will Prompt PRIDE. And Bishop Johnson Killed Pride. His folks was seperate from worldly folks. You knew Bishop Johnsons women or women under elders that attempt to continue in the Apostolic Doctrine. Most women
today that are so called christian -- you cant tell. Why? There is no difference between the Holy and the unholy. They are all the same. Unholy!! The bible says to put a difference between them. So he was right. He made the rules for his organization and if people didnt want to be a part of it that was their choice. If you cant beat them as they say, then join them. The people were following his dress code, just obiediently obeying who had the rule over them, since they chose to follow his teachings. I mean how hard is that to understand? He preached the true word and what he bound on earth, God bound in Heaven. What he loosed on Earth, God loosed in Heaven. Also, People have their ideas and opinions, but cant no one, (well not that I know of) put their money were their mouth is like he did. He offered the entire religious world $500,000.00 to prove him wrong in one thing he preached. And as far as I know, nobody ever Got it. So I know the man was right and everyone that dont preach what he preached concerning the Apostolic Doctrine is wrong. If they dont preach what he preached, then they should be able to Certify what they preach with a Reward to anyone that can condemn just one thing that they preach with Bible. Also what is the 5% that the Holy Temple teach that is different from Bishop Johnsons teachings. I was thinking of visiting them. PAZ!

Preach it Good Sister A! Errrrr, I mean, Sis Perez! (Your last name isn't Hilton is it?)

[sis_perez]

PTL Sisters- Sis Martha, and Sis. Warrior. Id like to chime in a little on the conversation I see between you both concerning these Preachers calling themselves Apostles, that have Learned what they learned from Bishop Johnson. Well I can only say what Bishop Johnson said, If they learned one thing from him, then they had to be TAUGHT. If they had to be TAUGHT- then..........God didnt send them. Remember ........God opened up the Apostles understanding. What the Apostles had- they got it by REVELATION, meaning, they got it Direct From God. So I dont understand how these preachers - Preach the truth- I cant knock that--but then they say that they are Apostles- and many of them Learned from Bishop Johnson-and that is what makes them wrong. They are lying on God. God opened up the understanding of the Apostles. Apostles dont need no man to open up nothing to them. They get it Direct from God as Did Paul and the rest of the Apostles. So what man does anyone know that is living today-that is preaching the truth- got what they Got Direct from God? We can not say that a man cannot preach the truth. There is no bible forbidding a man to preach the truth. But they better preach what the Apostles preached- and do like Bishop said- Dont say God sent them. They have Bible for Desiring to do what the bible call a Good Work. And the bible has qualifications that the man must meet to be a steward of God. The Baltimore Ave. church in Phila. if you listen to their Program on Sundays.- Part of their scrip says, "What are the Qualifications of an Apostolic Bishop?" And they dont even Believe in Preachers. Anyway, there is no Bible that says that one can only preach the truth if he was ordained of Bishop Johnson. And John, the last Apostle did not ordain Bishop Johnson. Also just because a man was ordained by Bishop Johnson, does not make the man right. From what I understand, I could be wrong, but Bishop ordained Selby and sent him out. Bishop Willards members claim that Selby said he was an apostle. But as for the tape listeners, and stay homers...They are very careful....Because most of these preachers are flat out liars. I was thinking of visiting the Holy Temple Church. But I started to question it because when someone is called an apostle- Well, I have heard what Bishop Johnson has said, I have read what the Bible said and these two agree, then here come something strange.........All these so called apostles out here why are they not together. So the Bible is right and somebody is definitely Wrong. Many tape listeners are confused by Bishop Johnsons teaching. But not all. Many dont believe anyone else can preach. Well many of them have what Bishop say on the tape contridicting the Bible. That is why they need a leader. Peace Be Sisters.

[sis_perez]

And warrior, what is it about Bishop Johnson that you dont agree with?

[warrior]

Good Morning Sis. Perez, I just wanted to acknowledge your post. I am on my way to work but I will respond when I get home later this evening.

[warrior]

Sis. Perez, my issue include people putting God in a box claiming that the entire WORLD has to hear Bishop Johnson. There is no scripture for that. The Bible makes no mention of all of the profound things that his followers claim he is. i.e. 14th apostle. The scripture easily proves the no son of God doctrine flawed. I posted the scriptures in a previous posts. Also, Bishop Johnson did have a right to make any rule he saw fit to make for his church, but there is no scripture for the dress code that he has set for his church. Those are my issues.

[warrior]

There are people who worship SCJ and are still waiting on him to rise from the dead.
If you tune into the previous posts you will see everything that has been said.

[sis_perez]

Well I understand exactly what you are saying about people putting God in a box. It is almost like they are forgetting that Bishop was only used of God and now that he's gone they praise him more than God. So I understand your point. And as far as the world having to hear him, well what he preached was the Apostolic doctrine- the truth- and Jesus told the Apostles - he that heareth you heareth me and He brougt Bible for what he preached. As far as some claiming he is the 14th Apostle, well. he taught to keep silent where the bible keep silent- so I claim him to be an apostle but I dont attach a number to to it. I dont recall him doing it. And as far as the dress code well he was not condemned with the world- right? I mean we as Followers of God are supposed to be Dead to the world. So if you put a long skirt and cotton stocking and long sleeves on a dead person in the hot summer time, it wont bother them. I mean God hates Pride. God hates a Proud look. So Bishop made sure there was no pride in his dress code.

[sis_perez]

And I am not understanding. You said "The scripture easily proves the no son of God doctrine flawed." Do you blieve there is a son of God in heaven Now? I am not sure I unserstand this statement.
And as far as people waiting for Bishop to come back, well they are entitled to believe that Bishop will come back, for God honors the Faith of the Heathens. but even though I am a tape listener, I have different views than many of the different groups. As far as i am concerned, they are putting God in a pretty low place if they think Bishop Johnson
is the only one God can use to preach the word. The Bible says to Continue in what we have learned. Bishop Preached the gospel of Christ. We all should be together praising God and continuing in the Apostles doctrine, and lifting up the Name of Jesus. I mean we will never forget Bishop and yes we thank God for using such a Great man to Deliver his word, but somebody has to Declare this Generation. Long as we have the Gospel of Christ our job is to pass it on to help someone else to escape Hell. Its a shame all these tape listeners out here and they cant even get together. And oh, they will take what some of what Bishop say and ignore the rest, and will totally refuse to give ear to the scripture. Its a shame, but to some, because of the hardness of their hearts, God has probably sent them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie. Sometime Bishops authority spoke out and sometimes the spirit spoke. Such as Bishop said he was going to sit the Elders down if they didnt stay in their place. He had his reason why he said this, but many of the tape listeners say, Cant nobody preach. Bishop sat all the Elders down. But Jesus said, If a man desire the office of a Bishop he desires a Good work. And then God has qualifications that a man must meet. But many of the tape listeners wont even consider the word, or Bishops reason for why he said what he said and some of the things that he did.

[Barb]

Well I understand exactly what you are saying about people putting God in a box. It is almost like they are forgetting that Bishop was only used of God and now that he's gone they praise him more than God. So I understand your point. And as far as the world having to hear him, well what he preached was the Apostolic doctrine- the truth- and Jesus told the Apostles - he that heareth you heareth me and He brougt Bible for what he preached. As far as some claiming he is the 14th Apostle, well. he taught to keep silent where the bible keep silent- so I claim him to be an apostle but I dont attach a number to to it. I dont recall him doing it. And as far as the dress code well he was not condemned with the world- right? I mean we as Followers of God are supposed to be Dead to the world. So if you put a long skirt and cotton stocking and long sleeves on a dead person in the hot summer time, it wont bother them. I mean God hates Pride. God hates a Proud look. So Bishop made sure there was no pride in his dress code.

Sis. P...

A couple of things...first, no offense, but if you would post in shorter paragraphs or sentences it would make for easier reading. I don't mean shorter posts, just break it up for easier forum reading.

Second, your reasoning regarding us being dead to the world so the heat of summer shouldn't bother us is flawed.

We are supposed to be dead to the world, but we are not dead as a door nail.

Thus we are still subject to the elements...if it's raining outside, and I walk out in it without an umbrella, I will get wet.

If the temp is in the 80s (may be comfortable for some, but to me it's hot), I'm going to want to seek for an air conditioned place.

The heat of the day doesn't open the door for dressing in an immodest fashion, but it doesn't mean I have to cover from head to foot to not be of the world.

NOW, if that is YOUR conviction, fine, but it's not mine...AND I don't have a proud look, either.

[Barb]

Bishop R.C. Lawson(1883-1961) was the founder of the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ in 1919. Bishop Johnson seperated from Lawson in 1930 and founded the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ because of these reason's the wearing of jewelry and makeup worn by women, the observance of Christmas,Easter, and Lent.

Praise the Lord. Bishop SC Johnson was the real thing . . . a true Apostle. He preached the gospel without regard to fame or favor, unlike Bishop Lawson, who dabbled in
politics and social causes. He was a true man of God. I consider myself to be blessed to have known him and heard him preach many, many times until his death in 1961.
Candle

First gt, I left the UPCI in 1979 and joined up with a COOLJC church for almost 24 years.

At that time, while some churches wore earrings and make up, many did not.

As for Bishop Lawson preaching for fame and favor, Candle, do you have PROOF of this, or is it supposition?!

Just because a preacher is involved politics and social issuses doesn't mean he is not a true man of God.

I am of the opinion that there are not enough men of God with the open door first, and the willingness second, to say, as did the prophet, "Thou art the man!!"

Bishop's influence was far and wide in New York, and reached many souls with the gospel who may not have heard it otherwise.

He may have made wrong choices in his ministry...I was not there and did not know him.

And as he was just a man, I's sure he missed it more than once.

But I would never venture to say that he was not a true man of God...

[Steve Epley]

First gt, I left the UPCI in 1979 and joined up with a COOLJC church for almost 24 years.

At that time, while some churches wore earrings and make up, many did not.

As for Bishop Lawson preaching for fame and favor, Candle, do you have PROOF of this, or is it supposition?!

Just because a preacher is involved politics and social issuses doesn't mean he is not a true man of God.

I am of the opinion that there are not enough men of God with the open door first, and the willingness second, to say, as did the prophet, "Thou art the man!!"

Bishop's influence was far and wide in New York, and reached many souls with the gospel who may not have heard it otherwise.

He may have made wrong choices in his ministry...I was not there and did not know him.

And as he was just a man, I's sure he missed it more than once.

But I would never venture to say that he was not a true man of God...

If there had been no Bishop Lawson there would have been No Bishop Johnson he was saved under a preacher out from under Bishop Lawson.

[warrior]

Thanks for that, Elder Epley. Many peoeple believe that SCJ was self taught which a total untruth.

[citizen]

Does anyone know how many preachers started their own ministry - who were saved under Bishop Lawson or were there any other break away preachers and if so what were their reasons for breaking away?

[warrior]

PTL Sisters- Sis Martha, and Sis. Warrior. Id like to chime in a little on the conversation I see between you both concerning these Preachers calling themselves Apostles, that have Learned what they learned from Bishop Johnson. Well I can only say what Bishop Johnson said, If they learned one thing from him, then they had to be TAUGHT. If they had to be TAUGHT- then..........God didnt send them. Remember ........God opened up the Apostles understanding. What the Apostles had- they got it by REVELATION, meaning, they got it Direct From God. So I dont understand how these preachers - Preach the truth- I cant knock that--but then they say that they are Apostles- and many of them Learned from Bishop Johnson-and that is what makes them wrong. They are lying on God. God opened up the understanding of the Apostles. Apostles dont need no man to open up nothing to them. They get it Direct from God as Did Paul and the rest of the Apostles. So what man does anyone know that is living today-that is preaching the truth- got what they Got Direct from God? We can not say that a man cannot preach the truth. There is no bible forbidding a man to preach the truth. But they better preach what the Apostles preached- and do like Bishop said- Dont say God sent them. They have Bible for Desiring to do what the bible call a Good Work. And the bible has qualifications that the man must meet to be a steward of God. The Baltimore Ave. church in Phila. if you listen to their Program on Sundays.- Part of their scrip says, "What are the Qualifications of an Apostolic Bishop?" And they dont even Believe in Preachers. Anyway, there is no Bible that says that one can only preach the truth if he was ordained of Bishop Johnson. And John, the last Apostle did not ordain Bishop Johnson. Also just because a man was ordained by Bishop Johnson, does not make the man right. From what I understand, I could be wrong, but Bishop ordained Selby and sent him out. Bishop Willards members claim that Selby said he was an apostle. But as for the tape listeners, and stay homers...They are very careful....Because most of these preachers are flat out liars. I was thinking of visiting the Holy Temple Church. But I started to question it because when someone is called an apostle- Well, I have heard what Bishop Johnson has said, I have read what the Bible said and these two agree, then here come something strange.........All these so called apostles out here why are they not together. So the Bible is right and somebody is definitely Wrong. Many tape listeners are confused by Bishop Johnsons teaching. But not all. Many dont believe anyone else can preach. Well many of them have what Bishop say on the tape contridicting the Bible. That is why they need a leader. Peace Be Sisters.

Sister Perez, I feel like we are somewhat on the same page. Leadership is totally what is needed here. However, people are not looking for leadership. They want to sit at home and claim to have a pastor when everyone knows that isn't true. Bishop Johnson cannot pastor anyone from the dead. When God took him off of the scene, he knew just what he was doing. You see people are still in disarray some 60 years after he died. The work of the enemy is at hand and the saints don't even recognize it.

I will say that there are preachers who are declaring the truth as THE BIBLE says so. I know one or two. These are the ones in my small little world. If you would like to send me a pm we can discuss my opinion of that in private.

I can bring some situations that put people at risk for falling into sin that a living pastor would have not approved of it and made proper arrangements to see that the saints were living a holy life. Once again God gave us pastors after his own heart.

As far as his dress code is concerned, he had the right to declare whatever he wanted to for his church, but the bible should be his basis for declaring everything instead of a list of arbitrary rules in hopes that people will walk around looking so bad that no one finds them attractive including themselves. God didn't call us to misery but abundant living. We are also warned against having a bunch of unecessary rules to put a strain on the lives of the people in the church.


Well, I will give you an opportunity to respond. More later!

[warrior]

Does anyone know how many preachers started their own ministry - who were saved under Bishop Lawson or were there any other break away preachers and if so what were their reasons for breaking away?

Bishop Lawson's ministry is still alive and well today. Bishop Bonner is the current bishop/apostle.

Unlike Bishop Johnson's ministry there hasn't been any court battles, at home tape players,a million spin-offs with the same doctrine refusing to fellowhip, anyone waiting on Lawson's resurrection from the dead or anything, as far as I know. If anyone knows of anything, feel free to share.

[citizen]

So only Bishop Johnson broke off from Bishop Lawson because of teachings they could not agree on?...or were there any other preachers. This seems fascinating.

[citizen]

Sister Perez - what state do you fellowship in?

[Barb]

So only Bishop Johnson broke off from Bishop Lawson because of teachings they could not agree on?...or were there any other preachers. This seems fascinating.

Bishop Johnson founded the COTLJC; Bishop Brooks, The Way Of The Cross; Bishop Smallwood Williams, Bible Way; if I'm not mistaken, Bishop John Pernell also broke ranks with the COOLJC.

Don't know of any others, but there may have been.

The late Sam Cooke was COOLJC, as was Rev. Ike...Eddie Murphy and Toni Braxton were raised in the org, and her daddy was/is a bishop.

[warrior]

Bump for Sis. Perez.

[sis_perez]

Good Evening all,
I would just like to Comment on Steve Epley. I disagree with you saying that if there was no Lawson there would be no Bishop Johnson. If there was no God, then there would not have been a Bishop SC Johnson. Bishop Johnson preached that the "Spirit told him to come out. Can you imagine the movement Lawson would have had if Bishop Johnson was a leader in his movement. Bishop Johnson said to Lawson, if God didnt bless his ministry, then he could say it was not of God. So God did that seperating. When Bj first started out, the first church or two that he had was taken from him. His success was through prayer, and Lawson had nothing to do with what Bishop J had. Also, Lawson was n the Days of BJ, and if Lawson was right, then he should have been able to walk away with the $500,000.oo reward that BJ offered.

[sis_perez]

Barb, just a small comment- You stated earlier-Just because a preacher is involved politics and social issuses doesn't mean he is not a true man of God.
Well I kinda disagree. The bible tell us to set our affections on things above and not on things of the earth.- It also says " Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If ANY man love the world the Love of the Father is not in him. So...... Is being involved in politics of the World or is it of the Father?

[warrior]

Sis. Perez, that whole business about 500,000 dollars doesn't carry a great deal of weight to me. I have heard a some of the debates by BJ and HE always declared himself the winner. The debates were never done in a style to which a debate should be done. Bishop Johnson had the biggest mouth and at the end of the day he said he was the winner.

They were always held on his turf. There wasn't a neutral party their to prove or disprove any statments made by either party and so forth. I am sorry, anyone can debate anything loud enough with a huge congregation of their followers cheering them and declare themselves the winner.

In my opinion, that is why his money never meant much too much to me.

[gthaywood1880]

Bishop John Pernell split from COOLJC in 1967 because of doctrinal differences because he believed God's name for this age is Yahweh rather than Jesus. Bishop Pernell died in 1972.

[Barb]

Good Evening all,
I would just like to Comment on Steve Epley. I disagree with you saying that if there was no Lawson there would be no Bishop Johnson. If there was no God, then there would not have been a Bishop SC Johnson. Bishop Johnson preached that the "Spirit told him to come out. Can you imagine the movement Lawson would have had if Bishop Johnson was a leader in his movement. Bishop Johnson said to Lawson, if God didnt bless his ministry, then he could say it was not of God. So God did that seperating. When Bj first started out, the first church or two that he had was taken from him. His success was through prayer, and Lawson had nothing to do with what Bishop J had. Also, Lawson was n the Days of BJ, and if Lawson was right, then he should have been able to walk away with the $500,000.oo reward that BJ offered.

Sis, I think I understood what Elder E meant...

Bishop Johnson was saved through the ministry of Bishop Lawson, either directly or indirectly.

So one can easily say that if there had not been a Lawson there may not have been a Johnson.

One other note: I picked up on something in your post...when Bishop Lawson was mentioned, it was "Lawson," but when referring to your bishop, it was "Bishop Johnson."

Was that intentional or an oversight?!

[Steve Epley]

Good Evening all,
I would just like to Comment on Steve Epley. I disagree with you saying that if there was no Lawson there would be no Bishop Johnson. If there was no God, then there would not have been a Bishop SC Johnson. Bishop Johnson preached that the "Spirit told him to come out. Can you imagine the movement Lawson would have had if Bishop Johnson was a leader in his movement. Bishop Johnson said to Lawson, if God didnt bless his ministry, then he could say it was not of God. So God did that seperating. When Bj first started out, the first church or two that he had was taken from him. His success was through prayer, and Lawson had nothing to do with what Bishop J had. Also, Lawson was n the Days of BJ, and if Lawson was right, then he should have been able to walk away with the $500,000.oo reward that BJ offered.

Evidently you misunderstand me I respect Bishop Johnson and marvel at the work he did. No doubt the Lord was with him for him to accomplish what he did. I thoroughly enjoyed Bishop Johnson's preaching. However Bishop Johnson was not saved under HIS own preaching he was saved under Bishop Lawson's preaching. So to cast aspirsions on Bishop Lawson is amazing since Bishop Johnson heard and obeyed the gosple through the influence of Bishop Lawson.

[Barb]

Barb, just a small comment- You stated earlier-Just because a preacher is involved politics and social issuses doesn't mean he is not a true man of God.
Well I kinda disagree. The bible tell us to set our affections on things above and not on things of the earth.- It also says " Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If ANY man love the world the Love of the Father is not in him. So...... Is being involved in politics of the World or is it of the Father?

You don't think that Christians need to be involved in the community?! Feeding the hungry...providing clothing for those in need...these are things left to the unchurched to see after?!

Sis. P, if we are alive and kicking, we are IN this world. That doesn't mean we set are affections on the things of this world, but it does mean that we should show compassion...we ought to care more than the average bear.

I am of the opinion that Christians ought to be where we can do the most good...where our godly influence can make a difference.

Regarding Bishop Lawson's involvment in civic affairs, this is from a booklet about Bishop, page 55...

Bishop was "an adament member of the Republican party. His political and civic and associations were always persued with the improvment of his people as the primary goal."

It goes on to say that he personally knew President Eisenhower. Bishop spoke on the radio against segregation. He "had a working relationship" with the mayor of New York and the governor.

Does this mean Bishop loved the world more than God?!

Does it mean the love of the Father was not in Him?!

[warrior]

Evidently you misunderstand me I respect Bishop Johnson and marvel at the work he did. No doubt the Lord was with him for him to accomplish what he did. I thoroughly enjoyed Bishop Johnson's preaching. However Bishop Johnson was not saved under HIS own preaching he was saved under Bishop Lawson's preaching. So to cast aspirsions on Bishop Lawson is amazing since Bishop Johnson heard and obeyed the gosple through the influence of Bishop Lawson.


Elder Epley, people believe this because they want to believe that Bishop Johnson was above learning from another man. His followers are of the opinion that everything he knew he got directly from the mouth of God.

If that be the case, then the Bible is a liar. The Bible says, "How can you hear without a preacher". Bishop Johnson had a teacher in the beginning of his ministry. As previously stated it was Bishop Lawson. He doesn't get credit for hit, but he was.

[warrior]

Good Evening all,
I would just like to Comment on Steve Epley. I disagree with you saying that if there was no Lawson there would be no Bishop Johnson. If there was no God, then there would not have been a Bishop SC Johnson. Bishop Johnson preached that the "Spirit told him to come out. Can you imagine the movement Lawson would have had if Bishop Johnson was a leader in his movement. Bishop Johnson said to Lawson, if God didnt bless his ministry, then he could say it was not of God. So God did that seperating. When Bj first started out, the first church or two that he had was taken from him. His success was through prayer, and Lawson had nothing to do with what Bishop J had. Also, Lawson was n the Days of BJ, and if Lawson was right, then he should have been able to walk away with the $500,000.oo reward that BJ offered.


Sister Perez,

We don't need to see Bishop Lawson's movement if Bishop Johnson was the head of it. We already know. There is a distinct difference between the two.
Bishop Lawson's movement is alive and well. As a matter of fact Bishop W.L. Bonner is at the helm of it.

Bishop Johnson's movement went immediatly into dissaray after his death. He had not appointed leadership. As a matter of fact, the last time I checked they were still fighting. In addition to those people, there are those have raised their own personal shrines to BJ and commence to worshipping him. There are tape players who think that God has spoken since BJ died. There are those still waiting on him to ressurect from the dead some four decades later. There are those who simply backslid because BJ was the heart of their salvation and not Jesus Christ. There are those who have restarted the same organization with the same teachings as BJ but refuse to worship together. To me that is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Anyway, to sum it up, BJ organization is a mess and has been since he died.

Although BJ preached Jesus many didn't have the scriptural foundation for themselves and are now walking in error because they refuse pastoral leadership. God didn't call anyone to pastor themselves. Sin is running rampant because they don't have a pastor (refering to situations I know about).

In other words, there is a distinct difference between what happened to Bishop Lawson's organization and what happened with Bishop Johnson's organization. So, please don't state things in a manner that said Bishop Lawson's organization would have been so much greater had BJ taken leadership. I beg to differ. God knew best.

[sis_perez]

Warrior just to comment on the $500,000.00 thing, well we have debate tapes. And it is clearly seen who the winner was when the other opponent could not bring bible chapter and verse to support their beliefs. Remember, the Debates were biblical. So wether the money means anything to anyone or not, he offered it to anyone walking in shoe leather to back up their religion with Bible. Nobody had to take the money if they didnt want it. I am sure if anyone could have stopped his big mouth for nothing, they would have done so.

[sis_perez]

Barb, actually it doesnt really matter whether I call him Johnson, Bishop Johnson, or BJ, it it actually a Habit calling him Bishop or Bishop Johnson.

[warrior]

I have debate tapes as well, and I promise you that isn't the proper way to do a debate, and my point still remains valid. There was no one there prove or disprove any statements made by either parties.

[sis_perez]

God dealt with Bishop Johnson. Just because B J Came out from Lawsons, what was working in BJ that was against Lawson is what saved him, because what Lawson had was not right. I understand the point you are trying to make, but Johnson could have started out in a Baptist church and with the spirit that was in him, he would have came out of there.

[Steve Epley]

God dealt with Bishop Johnson. Just because B J Came out from Lawsons, what was working in BJ that was against Lawson is what saved him, because what Lawson had was not right. I understand the point you are trying to make, but Johnson could have started out in a Baptist church and with the spirit that was in him, he would have came out of there.

Bishop Johnson could NOT have been born again in the Baptist church they did not teach the new birth message of Acts 2:38. Bishop Johnson as a sinner heard Acts 2:38 and was born again under the influence of Bishop Lawson. That is the facts of the case. He didn't receive it outside of it being preached to him like everyone else.

[warrior]

Folks just don't want to admit that Johnson had to learn from another human being. That is apart of the hype and misinformation pertaining the entire situation.

[sis_perez]

Warrier, I did not say that if Bishop J had have taken leadership that the organization would have been greater. I said if he was one of the leaders in the organization. I mean what happened to Lawsons organization when Johnson became what everyone was talking about? I am not speaking on after his death. I am speaking on while he was alive? Bishop Lawson didnt have a leg to stand on either. But you are right as far as the mess that has taken place after his death. The people cant get to gether because Bishop Spoke by the Spirit. They just cant get what he was saying. And Bishop J taught to Bring bible and they dont want to hear it. You would have thought Jesus Christ himself died and Bishop Johnson is in heaven the way a lot of them act. Amd you will get shot down so to speak if you believe in pastors.

[warrior]

Sis. Perez you are the only one I know with a reasonably healthy understanding of what people should be doing after the death of their pastor. I appreciate your willings to talk about this without idolizing BJ.

[sis_perez]

Well I need to know what exactly did Bishop Johnson learn from Bishop Lawson? Because Bishop Johnson stated that he had to fight Bishop Lawson. And if Bishop Johnson Learned anything from Bishop Lawson, How come Bishop Lawson did not come and get the Reward that Bishop Johnson offered, because BJ stated that didnt no man teach him. He stated that God revealed the thing to him. So that should have been an easy thing for Bishop Lawson to Stop Bishop Johnsons Big mouth on wether he took the reward or not. So again, I say, what could have Lawson have taught Bishop Johnon? The way I see it, sounds like it was revealed to him.

[warrior]

Sis. Perez, as Elder Epley said, BL introduced the Acts 2:38 message to BJ. What else he learned is probably a great deal. Who knows! I am sure somethings were revealed while others were taught, whatever they were.

[sis_perez]

Warrior, I see no reason not to give credit where credit is due. The preachers still talk about Paul and Peter and Noah and most people dont even give God Almighty credit for anything, they Give it all to the Son- which is dead and gone and is no more, of course , they dont understand this concept that there is "no SON of God in heaven now" in which Bishop Johnson is the Author of. So Bishop Johnson brought the Gospel without error, backed up 100% with Bible. So he is due credit. People fall into error saying that God sent them, calling themselves Apostles, and all that, knowing good and well, the Gospel was not reavealed to them Directly from God. But I am glad that through listening to what Johnson has preached, I got enough understanding to hear that the bible that says to continue in what was learned and have been assured of Knowing of WHOM thou has learned them. So just so you know, I am not one of those tape listeners that fail to undestand that God gave some apostles and some prophets .....pastors...teachers....
Just because a Pastor dies, the word continues. It is someones Job to keep the word before the People. That is why God gave the prophets, pastors and teachers... For the perfecting of the saints. So Martha is not alone in her beliefs.

[sis_perez]

How could he have introduced it to BJ if if BJ already knew that it was right? And why didnt Bishop Lawson get famous for stopping BJ's mouth - since he supposedly taught BJ? Bj said no man taught him anything. It just doesnt add up.

[sis_perez]

Barb, you are referring to your Bishop Lawson right? Well there is nothing wrong with giving someone something to eat or giving someone clothes. The bible speaks of "remembering the poor." But this being of the republican Party, Is that of God? Or is that of the World?
Is that considered setting his affections on things above or is his affections on things of the Earth? He should have been focusing on Getting people down in water in the Name of Jesus Christ. That would have remitted those segregational sins.

[warrior]

How could he have introduced it to BJ if if BJ already knew that it was right? And why didnt Bishop Lawson get famous for stopping BJ's mouth - since he supposedly taught BJ? Bj said no man taught him anything. It just doesnt add up.

It isn't confusing. Everbody doesn't need validation by proving everyone right. Either you are or you are not. Jesus wasn't going around offering anyone who could prove him wrong some money. God isn't the author of confusing. Bishop Johnson didn't condone the baseball game but he sure did have his own form of rioting going on in his debates.

[warrior]

Martha doesn't believe in pastors. I gave you that credit, Sis. Perez. Please re-read my post.

The Bible clearly disproves the no son of God in heaven theory. Go reread future post. there are the scriptures to so easily refute this doctrine. Of course like the others, you probably have ignored those scriptures because you don't want to admit the flaws in the teachings of BJ. He was an awesome teacher but was subject to erros as any other pastor or man of God.

[warrior]

JESUS CHRIST IS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD THE FATHER RIGHT NOW
Luke 22:69 Here after shall the Son of Man sit on the right hand of the power of God

Mark 14:62 I am: And you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, the Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear

I Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 …sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Ephesians 1:20-23 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right of God.

JESUS PRESENTLY MEDIATES FOR US
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[Barb]

Barb, you are referring to your Bishop Lawson right? Well there is nothing wrong with giving someone something to eat or giving someone clothes. The bible speaks of "remembering the poor." But this being of the republican Party, Is that of God? Or is that of the World?
Is that considered setting his affections on things above or is his affections on things of the Earth? He should have been focusing on Getting people down in water in the Name of Jesus Christ. That would have remitted those segregational sins.

First, I am referring to Bishop Lawson in my posts because that is the elder you were talking about. He is not 'my' Bishop Lawson...I never knew him.

Second, I am in this conversation because it is interesting, and I was COOLJC for almost 24 years.

Now regarding your question about Bishop Lawson being a Republican, and if it was of God or of the world...I will answer your question with a few questions...do you vote?!

Is it not our duty as Americans to let our voice be heard in the voting booth?!

Respectfully, it boggles my mind to see how anyone would think that because a minister has the ear of the mayor or whomever, and is allowing his presence in the community to be an influence for right, that this is setting affections on things of earth.

I can't speak for anyone but me, but I can vote and not lose my religion. Furthermore, stating one's political persuasion does not seem ungodly to me.

As for focusing on getting folks in the water, Bishop Lawson was strong and hard on Jesus Name baptism. Nothing I have read or heard describes anything less.

NOW, a final question...Sis. P, why are you so hard against an elder, trying to prove that he wasn't a man of God?!

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Barb]

How could he have introduced it to BJ if if BJ already knew that it was right? And why didnt Bishop Lawson get famous for stopping BJ's mouth - since he supposedly taught BJ? Bj said no man taught him anything. It just doesnt add up.

I don't have a clue as I wasn't there, but I can venture a guess...

Perhaps Bishop Lawson thought it prudent to take the high road and leave it alone.

I've learned a few things in my almost 58 years of living on planet earth...

Silence is not always a sign you CAN'T answer.

Often silence is the wisdom to know when NOT to. :thumbsup

[sis_perez]

Barb, to answer you question, No i do not vote. What is your voice going to change? The world isnt going to get any better. The earth is going to pass away and everything in it. How is voting and voicing your political opinion setting your affections on things above. It is setting you affections on things of the earth. And the earth is going to pass away. The Whole duty of man is to Fear God and Keep his commandments. And Please do not think I am hard against anyone. Its just that people are saying that Lawson taught Johnson and they are strong with it, but it just dont add up. I dont know of anyone in the world today that would walk over a $20.00 bill. Now why wouldnt someone stop Johnsons mouth if they could for $500,000.00 back then?? Bishop Lawson should have been able to do it easy. If he didnt want the money I am sure he could have used it to help aid the poor with clothes and food. You know, or just give it away to the Community.

[sis_perez]

Warrior, there is no bible against offering a reward is there? The man certified the Gospel that he preached. And people are "Hot" even now that couldnt nobody stand before him. Sorry also but I must have misunderstood your post concerning Martha and what to do when a pastor dies. Sorry about that.
And so you believe in 2 Gods. Well its is weird. Why did God say he didnt know no other Gods? Do you know what Right hand mean? God also said he laid down his life. Jesus said he laid down his life. How many died? Are you saying that the son is in heaven Now with God? Which one is coming? Which one do you worship? It is funny because I have never read anywhere in the Bible anything about "Them" The bible always talks about "him" or "He." Which one was the Savior? Jesus or God. I think it is really about to get very interesting in here.

[sis_perez]

Where was Jesus when God created the heavens and the earth? I know there was a son at one time but he died. He said you shall see me no more, but they saw him. So Jesus is a liar I guess because God cant lie. Right? Please Help me out here.

[sis_perez]

Barb, "Silent" is what Bishop Johnson made many say. Many folks went silent to keep themselves from being made a fool of. What can i say? Bishop Johnson had it and I am a Proud listener to his recordings. He stopped everybodys mouths and dared them to talk. Can you imagine the embarrassment? I wish I had a chance to see him. He was a very interesting man. And even today, Gods word can still be used to stop people. Thats all Bishop Johnson did. He knocked them over with the word of God. Do you believe there is 2 or 3 Gods or that the Son is up there passing God messages?

[Barb]

Barb, to answer you question, No i do not vote. What is your voice going to change? The world isnt going to get any better. The earth is going to pass away and everything in it. How is voting and voicing your political opinion setting your affections on things above. It is setting you affections on things of the earth. And the earth is going to pass away. The Whole duty of man is to Fear God and Keep his commandments. And Please do not think I am hard against anyone. Its just that people are saying that Lawson taught Johnson and they are strong with it, but it just dont add up. I dont know of anyone in the world today that would walk over a $20.00 bill. Now why wouldnt someone stop Johnsons mouth if they could for $500,000.00 back then?? Bishop Lawson should have been able to do it easy. If he didnt want the money I am sure he could have used it to help aid the poor with clothes and food. You know, or just give it away to the Community.

Barb, "Silent" is what Bishop Johnson made many say. Many folks went silent to keep themselves from being made a fool of. What can i say? Bishop Johnson had it and I am a Proud listener to his recordings. He stopped everybodys mouths and dared them to talk. Can you imagine the embarrassment? I wish I had a chance to see him. He was a very interesting man. And even today, Gods word can still be used to stop people. Thats all Bishop Johnson did. He knocked them over with the word of God. Do you believe there is 2 or 3 Gods or that the Son is up there passing God messages?

GOOD men and women died so that we could have the right to voice our opinion through a democratic vote.

I won't even go into those who died at the onset of the Civil Rights Movement...Medgar Evers and others, so that ALL Americans could have the same voting rights.

It's astonishing...

Again, as for Bishop Lawson not answering Bishop Johnson, no offense, but who cares if he responded to the challenge or not?! His refusal to get locked into that silliness does not make him less than a man of God...not to me anyway.

Sis. P...no man is an island unto himself. None can boast that we got where we are on our own.

Everyone has an Elijah somewhere in their life. Bishop Lawson may have been only the planting stage, while another watered, and God gave the increase.

But the fact remains that God uses humanity to preach the Word of truth.

And I will say again that silence is not an admission of anything.

NOW...you did not answer my question...

Why are you so hard against Bishop Lawson?! You say you are not, but your remarks seem to speak otherwise.

And what in the world does the bolded portion of your last post have to do with anything we have been discussing?! I am confused...

[warrior]

Warrior, there is no bible against offering a reward is there? The man certified the Gospel that he preached. And people are "Hot" even now that couldnt nobody stand before him. Sorry also but I must have misunderstood your post concerning Martha and what to do when a pastor dies. Sorry about that.
And so you believe in 2 Gods. Well its is weird. Why did God say he didnt know no other Gods? Do you know what Right hand mean? God also said he laid down his life. Jesus said he laid down his life. How many died? Are you saying that the son is in heaven Now with God? Which one is coming? Which one do you worship? It is funny because I have never read anywhere in the Bible anything about "Them" The bible always talks about "him" or "He." Which one was the Savior? Jesus or God. I think it is really about to get very interesting in here.


Sister Perez, you have been given a long list of scriptures from the BIBLE. I told you what the BIBLE said. I say what the BIBLE SAYS. THE BIBLE SAYS JESUS IS ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FATHER MAKING INTERCESSION.

Now, if you don't choose to believe the word of God that is up to you. I only say what the Bible said. Bishop Johnson was in error on that and the Bible proves it. Too be so proud and boastful that the Bible has proven you wrong and you want to remain in that state because you believe in the man more than the Bible.

[warrior]

Check your Bible to see if it says these things:

JESUS CHRIST IS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD THE FATHER RIGHT NOW
Luke 22:69 Here after shall the Son of Man sit on the right hand of the power of God

Mark 14:62 I am: And you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, the Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear

I Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 …sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Ephesians 1:20-23 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right of God.

JESUS PRESENTLY MEDIATES FOR US
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[sis_perez]

Barb, I was just wondering why did someone supposedly teach BJ - according to some of the posts- and yet, I could not figure out why no one ever defeated the man.
What make you think I am so hard against Bishop Lawson? I dont even know him. I didnt even sit under the Ministry of BJ. But when something dont sound too right, I like to try to make some sense of it.

[sis_perez]

Barb, Bishop Johnson gave bible for what he preached. Others that taught and preached lies and could not find what they preached in the bible. Now because Bishop J made mincemeat out of all that stood before him, you call that silliness? The bible is right.

[sis_perez]

Warrior, God asked a Question. He asked was there a God besides him self. He plainly said he didnt know no other God. So there is a lie out somewhere. You should be answering those questions I put before you previously.
That small amount of Bible you got that keep talking about the Right Hand. What does right hand mean? And how come the scriture never mentions anything about they? It is always "He or Him." Which is the Bible referring to? The Father or the Son? And where was Jesus when God Created the World???????

[sis_perez]

Warrior, who laid down thieir life for us???

[warrior]

Sister Perez, the scriptures above answers all of those questions. With all of those scripture you still don't believe the word of God. Sis. Perez, I told you what I believe. I have proven my point with BIBLE. Now you prove there is no son of God in Heaven with scripture. With all of BJ's information on this prove it. Listen to the tape and say what scriptures he uses to support this erroneous doctrine.

[warrior]

Bring bible that says there is no son of god in heaven now.

[warrior]

See it is really sad how you refuse to acknowledge the WORD of GOD. You are more concerned with my interpretation rather accepting the plain truth written in scripture.

It seems more important to believe an old teaching that only goes as far as those who believe that BJ was right in everything he taught. I know it is hard to believe it, but even the Bible proves this particular teaching of No Son of God in Heaven Now wrong.

[sis_perez]

You say acknowledge the word of God? You still have not responded to the first question I asked you. Now why did God said he didnt know no other God? What needs to be interpreted? The scriptures that you brought is making God out to be a liar. God also said that he was the Lord. He said there would be no God after him. He also said besides him, there is no savior. Now I acknowledge that God said all this. Do you?? Who saved the world- Jesus or God? What is needed to be interpreted except that man can be ignorant? Now exactly how many Gods are there? Since you can only seem to bring those scriptures, which I do not deny, please at least answer that.

[sis_perez]

Warrior, I dont understand how that flesh and blood man that died, and who is supposed to be the redeemer and savior, and True God or what ever else he may be called can be in heaven making intersessions with the Father, and the Father, who knowest all things claims to not know any other God. How can this be? You have to bring a few more scriptures or something for me to understand this. Can anyone help out with this? Please??

[warrior]

You say acknowledge the word of God? You still have not responded to the first question I asked you. Now why did God said he didnt know no other God? What needs to be interpreted? The scriptures that you brought is making God out to be a liar. God also said that he was the Lord. He said there would be no God after him. He also said besides him, there is no savior. Now I acknowledge that God said all this. Do you?? Who saved the world- Jesus or God? What is needed to be interpreted except that man can be ignorant? Now exactly how many Gods are there? Since you can only seem to bring those scriptures, which I do not deny, please at least answer that.


Those scriptures are making Bishop Johnson out to be the liar not God. Jesus never said there No Son of God in Heaven Now, Bishop Johnson said that. Just you know, my interpretation of those scriptures are not important. The word of God goes against the very teaching of No Son of God in Heaven Now.

Where are the scriptures that support BJ's teaching of No Son of God in Heaven Now?

[Barb]

Warrior, I dont understand how that flesh and blood man that died, and who is supposed to be the redeemer and savior, and True God or what ever else he may be called can be in heaven making intersessions with the Father, and the Father, who knowest all things claims to not know any other God. How can this be? You have to bring a few more scriptures or something for me to understand this. Can anyone help out with this? Please??

I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but this is my understanding...

God is Spirit...Jn. 4:24

Spirit could not die on the Cross...

Because without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22), and because Spirit had no Blood to shed or back to bear stripes for healing...

The Spirit of the Most High prepared Himself a body, and that body was the Person of Jesus Christ...flesh and blood...

For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily...Col. 2:9

That body died, rose again, and in His glorified state sits on the right hand, meaning all power and authority is IN Him.

That's why we pray in Jesus Name and Baptize in Jesus Name...

In John's vision of heaven he saw ONE throne and ONE sitting on the throne.

John could not see a Spirit, but he could see ONE sitting, and that ONE is Jesus Christ.

That's not two Gods...that's Oneness!!

Jesus IS God manifested in flesh...I Tim. 3:16

[Barb]

Barb, I was just wondering why did someone supposedly teach BJ - according to some of the posts- and yet, I could not figure out why no one ever defeated the man.
What make you think I am so hard against Bishop Lawson? I dont even know him. I didnt even sit under the Ministry of BJ. But when something dont sound too right, I like to try to make some sense of it.

Why is it so important to you to prove that no man defeated him?!

And what makes me think you are hard against Bishop Lawson?! LOL!! Your posts...!!


Barb, Bishop Johnson gave bible for what he preached. Others that taught and preached lies and could not find what they preached in the bible. Now because Bishop J made mincemeat out of all that stood before him, you call that silliness? The bible is right.

Please read my posts carefully...

I was speaking to the notion that he, or any man, has an obligation to get locked into a debate or answer a request as silliness...read carefully, Sis. P...:thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but this is my understanding...

God is Spirit...Jn. 4:24

Spirit could not die on the Cross...

Because without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22), and because Spirit had no Blood to shed or back to bear stripes for healing...

The Spirit of the Most High prepared Himself a body, and that body was the Person of Jesus Christ...flesh and blood...

For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily...Col. 2:9

That body died, rose again, and in His glorified state sits on the right hand, meaning all power and authority is IN Him.

That's why we pray in Jesus Name and Baptize in Jesus Name...

In John's vision of heaven he saw ONE throne and ONE sitting on the throne.

John could not see a Spirit, but he could see ONE sitting, and that ONE is Jesus Christ.

That's not two Gods...that's Oneness!!

Jesus IS God manifested in flesh...I Tim. 3:16

Now you have gone and done it made me say AMEN to a woman!:thumbsup
Help me Jesus.:thumbsup

[sis_perez]

So Warrior, as Barb said all power is in Him. In who? The Father or the son. I am trying to figure out somehing here. Who is Jesus? Is he the Lord or is he God? I guess you are proving the Father to be a pretty good liar. So, since there is 2, then which one is coming? And since John could not see a Spirit, then what he saw was Flesh and Blood according to what you seem to believe.
Now pay attention to what was wrote here" That body died, rose again, and in His glorified state sits on the right hand, meaning, all power and authority is IN Him. Wow. I asked someone before about that sitting on the right hand and since sitting on the right hand - means "Power " and then the Bible clearly says that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdon of God, well that must mean that John and Thomas saw the same one. Thomas answered and said "My Lord and My God". Cant you see there is no son in Heaven? Aint nobody up there but the father. The son Died!!! He died. God himself got back into that body. That is why he can talk the way he talks. He calls himself Lord. He calls himself God. He speaks of what he was as if it is now, in which he WAS the son. The Bible says he was in the world, Right- that was the son in the world right? The world was made by him, we all know that God Made the world , and it says the World know him not. Who was it that was in the World that the folks didnt know that also calls himself God which the bible says " Was manifested in the Flesh? And Mr God said he didnt know no other God. Well, you agree that God lied when he said that he didnt know no other God? Is God a Liar?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here you can listen to The Bishop for yourself.
http://www.apostolic-ministries.net/memory.htm#tapes

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.apostolic-ministries.net/late_bishop_johnson.htm

[sis_perez]

Barb, this is just a room under the name " Bishop SC Johnson" and knowing he preached truth, and backed it up with the bible, I believe the Bible thats all. And the bible does not contridict itself saying one thing here and something else over here and then not adding up.
But your post, I got to give it to you. It is so clear to see that all God did was prepare himself a Body, and got inside of it, then he got out of it so that it could die, then he got back into it- Glorifying it, and he went back. The sons life was in the Blood. He shed his blood. There was no blood in that Glorified body. That glorified body was spirit. Thats why he could appear with doors being shut. The sonship started in the womb of Mary and ended on the cross. There is No more son. God sure confused the carnal mind.

[sis_perez]

Jesus didnt make peace when he healed on the sabbath.

[sis_perez]

Scott I will be checking out the site. Thanks.

[warrior]

I already told you who the liar is, and it ain't my God. So you keep saying that if you want to but I will never agree. You plainly see that BJ was the one who was in error with the teaching and the scripture refutes it. So accept it or not, that is between you and God.

[sis_perez]

Bishop Johnson is not the one that said he didnt know no other God. God said it and I asked you did God lie. You never answered that question. And which God are you referring to that is yours? The Father or the Son? Can you answer? Maybe you can get someone to answer if you cant. I am just curious thats all. You said to me, "So Accept it or not, that is between me and God." Err, umm.......You musta forgot to mention the Mediator. Wouldnt he have something to do with it?

[Steve Epley]

Paul said the Son of God passed into Heaven and he said the Son of God would come from Heaven. I liked the Bishop however I prefer to believe Paul.
When Jesus was on the earth Bishop Johnson said he was the Son of God yet there were NOT two persons. God as Spirit and the human body today God as Spirit and the glorified body. NOT two persons.

[sis_perez]

That right Steve, he was the son when he was on the earth. All God did was make himself a body and get inside of it. Why do yo u think just before that body passed away he said, My God My God, why has thou forsaken me? That is because God came out of it so it could die. Why do you think he said " He that seeth me seeth him that sent me? The life was in the Blood. When that body shed the blood, that was the end of the son. I mean, come on, it looks like warrior refused to anwswer maybe you can help her out. Well it looks like you are saying there are two spirits. " God as a spirit and the human body today God as a Spirit and the Glorified body." So do you feel like God lied when he said he did not know any other Gods? If there is someone else up there with him how come God is Denyingit? And just to let you all know, I believe that Jesus Christ is God almighty.

[sis_perez]

Warrior I didnt ask you to agree, I just asked you a simple question. Now, do you believe that God lied when he said he didnt know no other God?

[Steve Epley]

That right Steve, he was the son when he was on the earth. All God did was make himself a body and get inside of it. Why do yo u think just before that body passed away he said, My God My God, why has thou forsaken me? That is because God came out of it so it could die. Why do you think he said " He that seeth me seeth him that sent me? The life was in the Blood. When that body shed the blood, that was the end of the son. I mean, come on, it looks like warrior refused to anwswer maybe you can help her out. Well it looks like you are saying there are two spirits. " God as a spirit and the human body today God as a Spirit and the Glorified body." So do you feel like God lied when he said he did not know any other Gods? If there is someone else up there with him how come God is Denyingit? And just to let you all know, I believe that Jesus Christ is God almighty.

Paul clearly taught Jesus IS(at the time of the writing 30 years after the ascension) the image of the invisible God. Col. 1:15
Also he states "For IN Him DWELLETH(that means at the time of the writing) all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY" Col. 2:9

[Steve Epley]

Warrior I didnt ask you to agree, I just asked you a simple question. Now, do you believe that God lied when he said he didnt know no other God?

He did NOT know another God when the Son was on the earth did he? The Son is God the Father incarnate.

[sis_perez]

Paul said the Son of God passed into Heaven and he said the Son of God would come from Heaven. I liked the Bishop however I prefer to believe Paul.
When Jesus was on the earth Bishop Johnson said he was the Son of God yet there were NOT two persons. God as Spirit and the human body today God as Spirit and the glorified body. NOT two persons.


Steve, you said he said the son would come from heaven right? i do believe he was talking about what he had been. I do not deny the scripture. But still for some reason I am a little confused because, the scripture says, "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our savior Jesus Christ Who gave HIMSELF- (SINGULAR) for us, that HE might redeem us from iniquity...... Can you explain that?? Sounds like God redeemed us and Jesus redeemed us? What you got to say Bossman?

[Steve Epley]

Steve, you said he said the son would come from heaven right? i do believe he was talking about what he had been. I do not deny the scripture. But still for some reason I am a little confused because, the scripture says, "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our savior Jesus Christ Who gave HIMSELF- (SINGULAR) for us, that HE might redeem us from iniquity...... Can you explain that?? Sounds like God redeemed us and Jesus redeemed us? What you got to say Bossman?

The ONLY way the Son came from Heaven was God made a body through Mary and THAT which was born of her was called the Son of God. God was IN Christ to redeem us. That body was killed-resurrected-ascended into Heaven-and is coming back to recieve us. God IN Christ.

[Barb]

Steve, you said he said the son would come from heaven right? i do believe he was talking about what he had been. I do not deny the scripture. But still for some reason I am a little confused because, the scripture says, "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our savior Jesus Christ Who gave HIMSELF- (SINGULAR) for us, that HE might redeem us from iniquity...... Can you explain that?? Sounds like God redeemed us and Jesus redeemed us? What you got to say Bossman?

As Elder E has stated, God was IN Christ. God was manifested (made known) in the flesh.

As for the Scripture you cited which reads "great God AND our savior Jesus Christ..."

In the Greek, the English word and is kai, and it means and, also, which is, even.

In 1611 the Trinitarian translators believed in 3 Persons, thus made a distinction between God and Christ by using the word and.

The Bible is clear on this...the great God of heaven gave Himself, and it is He who redeemed us THROUGH the PERSON of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the "express image" of God (Heb. 1:3), original meaning that He is the impressed or expression of His substance.

Everything that God was, is, and will ever be dwells in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Again, Sis. P, that's not another God...that's Oneness...one God reconciling the world unto Himself. :thumbsup

[mfblume]

it is not anti-oneness to say that GOD is distinguished from JESUS. The bible does do this many times. It is understood in such cases that GOD refers to the Father, just like GOD THE FATHER is in the bible but GOD THE SON is not. It is distinguishing sonship from fatherhood.

Rev 22 shows GOD AND THE LAMB after Rev 5 shows the LAMB going to the ONE on the throne. This is oneness! It's just that some folks never really understood that oneness does not deny a difference between offices of Son and Father, but denies a difference of PERSONS.

[Barb]

it is not anti-oneness to say that GOD is distinguished from JESUS. The bible does do this many times. It is understood in such cases that GOD refers to the Father, just like GOD THE FATHER is in the bible but GOD THE SON is not. It is distinguishing sonship from fatherhood.

Rev 22 shows GOD AND THE LAMB after Rev 5 shows the LAMB going to the ONE on the throne. This is oneness! It's just that some folks never really understood that oneness does not deny a difference between offices of Son and Father, but denies a difference of PERSONS.

Exactly...:thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

it is not anti-oneness to say that GOD is distinguished from JESUS... The bible does do this many times... It is understood in such cases that GOD refers to the Father, just like GOD THE FATHER is in the bible but GOD THE SON is not... It is distinguishing sonship from fatherhood.Rev 22 shows GOD AND THE LAMB after Rev 5 shows the LAMB going to the ONE on the throne... This is oneness!.. It's just that some folks never really understood that oneness does not deny a difference between offices of Son and Father, but denies a difference of PERSONS.Absolutely.:thumbsup

[sis_perez]

I only believe there is one God. His name is Jesus. Jesus is only Gods name! The is nothing in heaven but HIM! I can only come up with the same one that people are confused over. I dont know nothing about no 2 persons or two personalities. Steve do you Believe this?
Barb?
MFBlume?
I know Warrior dont believe this. The one that was in the world in the flesh was is the SAME ONE that made it. Are we all on the same page with this? Everything was done by the same one spirit. No son came from heaven , no son rose and no son went back to heaven. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

[sis_perez]

He did NOT know another God when the Son was on the earth did he? The Son is God the Father incarnate.

God said, before him there was no God formed and there wasnt going to be no God formed after him. So Steve are you saying that there still is a Son or are you plainly saying that Jesus Christ is God Almighty? Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he did not know no other God?

[Steve Epley]

I only believe there is one God. His name is Jesus... Jesus is only Gods name! The is nothing in heaven but HIM!.. I can only come up with the same one that people are confused over. I dont know nothing about no 2 persons or two personalities. Steve do you Believe this?Barb?MFBlume? I know Warrior dont believe this..... The one that was in the world in the flesh was is the SAME ONE that made it. Are we all on the same page with this? Everything was done by the same one spirit. No son came from heaven , no son rose and no son went back to heaven... Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.There is only one Person One God and His name is Jesus. That God who is Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived and bore the Son of God(who was God manifested in the flesh). That Son was killed-buried-rose from the dead and THAT resurrected body ascended into Heaven. Acts 1:9-11 That SAME body is returning to get His church. Phil. 3:20-21 And we shall see His face that sits on the throne. Rev. 22:4
There was NOT two gods when the Son of God was on the earth and there is No two gods today.

[Steve Epley]

God said, before him there was no God formed and there wasnt going to be no God formed after him. So Steve are you saying that there still is a Son or are you plainly saying that Jesus Christ is God Almighty? Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he did not know no other God?

Jesus was Almighty God when He was on the earth and He is Almighty God today. Nothing has changed with the exception His body was changed from mortal to immortality.

[warrior]

I only believe there is one God. His name is Jesus. Jesus is only Gods name! The is nothing in heaven but HIM! I can only come up with the same one that people are confused over. I dont know nothing about no 2 persons or two personalities. Steve do you Believe this?
Barb?
MFBlume?
I know Warrior dont believe this. The one that was in the world in the flesh was is the SAME ONE that made it. Are we all on the same page with this? Everything was done by the same one spirit. No son came from heaven , no son rose and no son went back to heaven. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Translation: Sis. Perez doesn't believe the word of God and prefers to believe a man instead of the word of God.

Regardless to what has been explained here or the Bible says, Bishop Johnson's word is more credible that GOD'S Word. Believe Bishop Johnson and not the Bible.


What about the scripture that says he ascended into the heavens?

[sis_perez]

He went back to what he was. That is why when Jesus appeared and the doors were shut, and Thomas saw him, Thomas said " My Lord and my God. He only saw one. But Steve the way you keep talking I still dont know if you believe there is one or two Gods. What do you believe? You say one person... God is no person. God is a Spirit!!!Person signifies to me flesh and blood. Remember, that body belonged to the father. He made it. So he could call what he made his son. Just like the church is the son. It is the mystical body of Christ.
And God is in his church. The spirit that was in the body was the father. When the blood was shed, and the spirit left the body. The body had no more life. The son was gone. The life was in the Blood. In 3 days the spirit got back inside that body and Changed it. The son(BLood) never returned. So that was the Father confusing the Carnal mind. And people want to throw off on Johnson. Well the man know what he was talking about. And he was certainly right when he preached- that the CARNAL mind is not subject to the things of GOD.

[sis_perez]

Oh and by the way, I wear cotton stockings.

[sis_perez]

All I have said was what God did and what GOD said and have asked a few questions which Warrior has refused to Answer, The question was clearly based off of what God has said. Everyone can read it for themselves. I just dont know if the God that said that is the one you refer to as your God or not. Now, God (Not Johnson) said there was no God formed before him and there wouldnt be any Gods formed after him. Do you believe that God lied when he said he didnt know no other God? I believe there is only one God, which is according to what God said,and not what Johnson or some man said. You believe it is two. Leave Johnson out of this. This is between you, God and I. Now either God is lying or you are lying. So WHO is the Liar??? Give me a straight answer please. If you dont, well we can see you are proud knowing nothing and you are manifested as a --umm......liar.

[sis_perez]

The son didnt ascend into the heavens. We can work on that later. You need to answer and stop trying to get off the subject to keep from answering.

[warrior]

It has already been established who the liar is and it ain't God.

[warrior]

Sis. Perez, I don't intend to answer those questions. It is my goal to point you to the word of God and only the word of God. My belief is not important when the BIBLE clearly states that the Son is on the right hand of the father.

[warrior]

Sis. Perez this whole question thing of who is lying and who isn't is only a smoke screen so that you can continue to walk in error. You have read the word for yourself. Either you believe it or you don't. It is just that simple. Looks like you have chosen to believe the lies rather than the truth.

This has everything to do with BJ because he is the founder of this doctrine. It originated with him.

[Steve Epley]

He went back to what he was. That is why when Jesus appeared and the doors were shut, and Thomas saw him, Thomas said " My Lord and my God. He only saw one. But Steve the way you keep talking I still dont know if you believe there is one or two Gods. What do you believe? You say one person... God is no person. God is a Spirit!!!Person signifies to me flesh and blood. Remember, that body belonged to the father. He made it. So he could call what he made his son. Just like the church is the son. It is the mystical body of Christ.
And God is in his church. The spirit that was in the body was the father. When the blood was shed, and the spirit left the body. The body had no more life. The son was gone. The life was in the Blood. In 3 days the spirit got back inside that body and Changed it. The son(BLood) never returned. So that was the Father confusing the Carnal mind. And people want to throw off on Johnson. Well the man know what he was talking about. And he was certainly right when he preached- that the CARNAL mind is not subject to the things of GOD.

Jesus clearly said in Jn. 2:19 the body would raise from the dead. THAT body ascended INTO Heaven. Acts 1:9-11 That SAME Jesus is returning in LIKE MANNER as ye SEEN HIm go away.

[jaxfam6]

Well TECHNICALLY Jesus is just our ANGLICIZED version of what His name is. So if you REALLY believe that you need to use HIS real name you should learn it in the HEBREW and use that, if you want to be correct. Wouldn't want anyone making a mistake and saying His name wrong, He may not answer because He doesn't know who they are calling on.
There are more strange beliefs out there than I ever realized, and I thought I knew about most of them.

[warrior]

Jesus clearly said in Jn. 2:19 the body would raise from the dead. THAT body ascended INTO Heaven. Acts 1:9-11 That SAME Jesus is returning in LIKE MANNER as ye SEEN HIm go away.

Elder Epley, you have done it again. You gave more scripture that refutes the very doctrine of NO SON OF GOD IN HEAVEN NOW!

[warrior]

He went back to what he was. That is why when Jesus appeared and the doors were shut, and Thomas saw him, Thomas said " My Lord and my God. He only saw one. But Steve the way you keep talking I still dont know if you believe there is one or two Gods. What do you believe? You say one person... God is no person. God is a Spirit!!!Person signifies to me flesh and blood. Remember, that body belonged to the father. He made it. So he could call what he made his son. Just like the church is the son. It is the mystical body of Christ.
And God is in his church. The spirit that was in the body was the father. When the blood was shed, and the spirit left the body. The body had no more life. The son was gone. The life was in the Blood. In 3 days the spirit got back inside that body and Changed it. The son(BLood) never returned. So that was the Father confusing the Carnal mind. And people want to throw off on Johnson. Well the man know what he was talking about. And he was certainly right when he preached- that the CARNAL mind is not subject to the things of GOD.

This teaching and belief is totally contrary to the word of God. No such thing. Show the scriptures to prove it.

Yes Johnson will always be at the center of this topic because he started it. So, get over it.

[Steve Epley]

I had a Pastor friend years ago who believed the same thing we fussed about it for years. I never could understand how he could see Jesus as the Son of God on the earth and yet there were no two gods but when the Son of God went to Heaven there were two gods. There was not TWO in the Godhead when the Son of God was on the earth. God was in Christ as well as being onmipresent at the same time.

[warrior]

At least he believed the Son of God went to Heaven. Folks around here refuse to believe he went to heaven even though the Bible says he did.

[warrior]

I suggest we start with the Bible and cross reference the messages given by the pastor with the Bible to be sure it aligns. The saints need to stop believing something just because their pastor said it.

If the word doesn't support a particular teaching, it should automatically be forward to file 13 unless you choose to walk in error and continue to believe something just because you believe they are above error.

[Barb]

All I have said was what God did and what GOD said and have asked a few questions which Warrior has refused to Answer, The question was clearly based off of what God has said. Everyone can read it for themselves. I just dont know if the God that said that is the one you refer to as your God or not. Now, God (Not Johnson) said there was no God formed before him and there wouldnt be any Gods formed after him. Do you believe that God lied when he said he didnt know no other God? I believe there is only one God, which is according to what God said,and not what Johnson or some man said. You believe it is two. Leave Johnson out of this. This is between you, God and I. Now either God is lying or you are lying. So WHO is the Liar??? Give me a straight answer please. If you dont, well we can see you are proud knowing nothing and you are manifested as a --umm......liar.
Sis. P...please read this post VERY carefully because it may very well be the last you see from me on this subject.

The point where you and me are coming to a parting of the ways is in saying that if we don't answer you, we are proud, knowing nothing, and manifested as liars.

How rude is that, dear Sister?!

For starters, we HAVE answered you to the best of our ability. For whatever reason, you refuse or cannot understand what has been posted.

SO for the LAST time:

I do NOT believe God is a liar when He said He knew no other God.

I do NOT believe in two, three or any other number of God, save ONE.

For the final record, I believe that the Spirit of the ONE God overshadowed Mary, she conceived a flesh and blood child, and as directed by the angel, named Him Jesus.

I believe that in that flesh and blood humanity dwelt all the fulness of the godhead bodily.

I believe God was IN Christ as well as omnipresent.

I believe that He lived, performed miracles, taught the multitudes, died, rose, was seen of men, and ascended into heaven.

That is NOT a contradiction of Scripture re flesh and blood not entering in. His body had been glorified, as ours will be when we are raptured out of here.

This is what the Bible meant when it talks about being CHANGED from mortal to immortality.

This glorified body is the same that we will see when we get to heaven.

He will be crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords...can't crown a Spirit.

We will bow and worship before the throne...can't bow before a Spirit.

The four and twenty elders will cast their crowns before His feet...a Spirit doesn't have feet in which to cast crowns.

That ONE we will see is the ONLY God of Glory...ONE God, and His NAME is Jesus!!

I am sorry that you cannot grasp this. My prayer is that the Oneness of the Godhead is revealed to you.

In closing, if my posting has offended you, you have my sincere apologies. However, I cannot converse with someone who thinks that we are liars. Name calling, whether directed at me or Warrior or anyone else is unacceptable.

No one is above error...not me, not you, not Elder Epley, and not Bishop Johnson. We are all capable of making a mistake: reading something wrong or wording something incorrectly.

But to say that the difference of opinion or silence on a subject makes one to be a liar, well sis, that's where we part company.

I am not upset or offended...just don't have time to discuss with someone who doesn't want to play nice.

[warrior]

Spoken beautifully, Barb.

[sis_perez]

Good Evening all. Barb, I am really sorry that you feel that way. We all have different beliefs but only one is right. The Bible says One Lord, one Faith, One Baptism. There are too many scriptures to mention that proves that the same spirit was operating thoughout the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelations. It is a great mystery and the carnal mind cannot see that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. I dont understand why would God call himself the " redeemer" the Beginning of the bible before the son came on the scene.. God himself asked a question - saying, Is there a God besides me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any.- Then in Isaiah 44:24- Thus saith the Lord, thy REDEEMER, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth for the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. So Who is the Redeemer? Jesus or God. So if God made ALL THINGS, and HE KNOW ALL THINGS, and he Made that Body withfflesh and blood called the SON, then he said In Isaiah 43:10 he said, " Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and Believe ME and understand that "I AM HE"; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So accordning to what some are saying here, the son is up there with God. Its like the son is the visible one and God is the one you cant see. So it really sound like God is lying. But it is just the ignorance of men. Thats why i have confidence in the word, which I have, and it is rightly divided so a fool should be able to understand. If people dont understand then God must have sent them a strong dilusion so that they will believe something that the Bible dont support. And Just knowing that the Lord is the redeemer and that he made all things,and that he is the ONLY God, this just frustrateth the tokens of the Liars, and maketh diviners MAD,- it turneth wise men BACKWARDS, and maketh their knowledge foolish.

[Steve Epley]

Good Evening all. Barb, I am really sorry that you feel that way. We all have different beliefs but only one is right. The Bible says One Lord, one Faith, One Baptism. There are too many scriptures to mention that proves that the same spirit was operating thoughout the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelations. It is a great mystery and the carnal mind cannot see that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. I dont understand why would God call himself the " redeemer" the Beginning of the bible before the son came on the scene.. God himself asked a question - saying, Is there a God besides me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any.- Then in Isaiah 44:24- Thus saith the Lord, thy REDEEMER, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth for the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. So Who is the Redeemer? Jesus or God. So if God made ALL THINGS, and HE KNOW ALL THINGS, and he Made that Body withfflesh and blood called the SON, then he said In Isaiah 43:10 he said, " Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and Believe ME and understand that "I AM HE"; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So accordning to what some are saying here, the son is up there with God. Its like the son is the visible one and God is the one you cant see. So it really sound like God is lying. But it is just the ignorance of men. Thats why i have confidence in the word, which I have, and it is rightly divided so a fool should be able to understand. If people dont understand then God must have sent them a strong dilusion so that they will believe something that the Bible dont support. And Just knowing that the Lord is the redeemer and that he made all things,and that he is the ONLY God, this just frustrateth the tokens of the Liars, and maketh diviners MAD,- it turneth wise men BACKWARDS, and maketh their knowledge foolish.

Was there two Gods when the Son was on the earth yet the Eternal Spirit was in Heaven and in the Son at the same time?

[sis_perez]

Barb my dear friend, all I did was ask a question. I am not mad or upset. And so far, you are the ONLY ONE that answered it. So we see who is honest and who is not. And just for the record, Jesus called people fools and liars, and serpents and all that.
And some where around the beginning of this post, warrior and some others really ganged up on poor Martha. So you shouldnt have to stand up for anyone. you have proven your belief. So why cant all the rest?

[sis_perez]

Steve Do you have God in YOu?

[Steve Epley]

Steve Do you have God in YOu?

Yes I do and there is ONLY One God however I am NOT God!!!!

The Son was God the Father incarnate on the earth without limitations.

[warrior]

Sister Perez, no one told you any lies. You were pointed toward the very scriptures that showed what you have been believing all this time is false. It is okay with me, if you want to ignore the Bible. One thing for sure, you have heard the truth and cannot deny hearing in the judgement.

Carry on with your falsehood. You have yet to bring one scripture that proves No Son of God in Heaven Now?

I did bring Bible. Plain and Simple. Not my interpretation, just Bible!

[sis_perez]

God is everywhere. He is in heaven and he is Holy ghost in the church. Arent we all as Christians supposed to have Christ in us? Do you have the Holy Ghost? Cant you see it is the same spirit operating? God said he didnt know no other God. You are saying there is two Gods. God said there would be no Gods before him and none after him. Come on Steve. Why cant you understand this? Do you only believe part of the bible? In Isaiah The Lord is talking very plain . Why dont you check out in John and look real good to see who was doing the talking after God raised up his own body. (Keep in Mind his name is Jesus.)
This is weird. I mean how everyone see somethnig different and God told everybody to all speak the same thing. Jealous as God is do you think he would make another God for us to worship? He made it clear that there would be no God formed after him.

[warrior]

Good Evening all. Barb, I am really sorry that you feel that way. We all have different beliefs but only one is right. The Bible says One Lord, one Faith, One Baptism. There are too many scriptures to mention that proves that the same spirit was operating thoughout the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelations. It is a great mystery and the carnal mind cannot see that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. I dont understand why would God call himself the " redeemer" the Beginning of the bible before the son came on the scene.. God himself asked a question - saying, Is there a God besides me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any.- Then in Isaiah 44:24- Thus saith the Lord, thy REDEEMER, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth for the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. So Who is the Redeemer? Jesus or God. So if God made ALL THINGS, and HE KNOW ALL THINGS, and he Made that Body withfflesh and blood called the SON, then he said In Isaiah 43:10 he said, " Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and Believe ME and understand that "I AM HE"; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So accordning to what some are saying here, the son is up there with God. Its like the son is the visible one and God is the one you cant see. So it really sound like God is lying. But it is just the ignorance of men. Thats why i have confidence in the word, which I have, and it is rightly divided so a fool should be able to understand. If people dont understand then God must have sent them a strong dilusion so that they will believe something that the Bible dont support. And Just knowing that the Lord is the redeemer and that he made all things,and that he is the ONLY God, this just frustrateth the tokens of the Liars, and maketh diviners MAD,- it turneth wise men BACKWARDS, and maketh their knowledge foolish.

What scripture proves that God would give someone a strong dillusion so that they won't believe his word? This is just as wacky as wacky can be!

If it weren't so sad and pathetic, it would be laughable!

[warrior]

God is everywhere. He is in heaven and he is Holy ghost in the church. Arent we all as Christians supposed to have Christ in us? Do you have the Holy Ghost? Cant you see it is the same spirit operating? God said he didnt know no other God. You are saying there is two Gods. God said there would be no Gods before him and none after him. Come on Steve. Why cant you understand this? Do you only believe part of the bible? In Isaiah The Lord is talking very plain . Why dont you check out in John and look real good to see who was doing the talking after God raised up his own body. (Keep in Mind his name is Jesus.)
This is weird. I mean how everyone see somethnig different and God told everybody to all speak the same thing. Jealous as God is do you think he would make another God for us to worship? He made it clear that there would be no God formed after him.

You are in the minority on this belief, honey. You are the ONLY one speaking something different. And there was Bible brought to support what was said. Where is Bible to support what you were saying.

[sis_perez]

I asked you that because if God is in you does that mean he is not in heaven? I gave Blble Chapter and verse to support that God said he didnt know no other God. Now you give bible for that statement " the son of God was the father incarnate". Bible chapter and verse please. Or if you have no bible, which I know you dont, just please explain this father incarnate to me.

[warrior]

I gave several verses that specifically said he was on the right hand of the father. Why don't you pray and ask God to deal with you concerning his word instead of trying to hold fast to something that God never said.

[Steve Epley]

I asked you that because if God is in you does that mean he is not in heaven? I gave Blble Chapter and verse to support that God said he didnt know no other God. Now you give bible for that statement " the son of God was the father incarnate". Bible chapter and verse please. Or if you have no bible, which I know you dont, just please explain this father incarnate to me.

Jn. 1:1,14, 1Tim. 3:16, Jn. 14:6-10


Incarnate means God was revealed in flesh.

[sis_perez]

If you dont want to recieve the love of the truth, the 2 thessalonians chapter 2 verses 10- 12 will show you why God will do this.

[sis_perez]

But God sitting on the right hand of the father signifies "power." Are you saying God never said he didnt know no other God, Warrior?

[warrior]

If you dont want to recieve the love of the truth, the 2 thessalonians chapter 2 verses 10- 12 will show you why God will do this.

Thanks for showing me that. I had never seen that scripture before. That must be what is happening to you. Truth has been shown to you and you won't believe it. Again, it is really sad.

[sis_perez]

You are correct with this Steve so who raised that body? Jesus or God? Please Give bible to substantuate your answer.

[sis_perez]

Yes, really sad that you wont admit that God said he didnt know no other God.

[warrior]

Again, my goal is to put the word out there, and leave everything else to God. What is happening in my mind has nothing to do what the word says. At the end of the day, regardless to what anyone says, including Bishop Johnson, the word isn't going to change.

So, I won't be stating my interpretation of anything. I just repeat what I know the scriptures say.

Again, my recommendation is to pray and ask for God's help in getting an understanding.

[warrior]

Anyway, this point has been proven a long time ago. The rest is up to you. Good Night and God Bless.

[Steve Epley]

You are correct with this Steve so who raised that body? Jesus or God? Please Give bible to substantuate your answer.

Jesus IS God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jn. 2:19 makes it very clear.

[jaxfam6]

lord help us all.

[citizen]

Maybe if we take the time to consider what each is saying (were all apostolics here) it could be we mean the same thing but are delivering it differently. This is how I can explain it-

When we die our body will be sown a natural body, but will be raised a spiritual body (glorified).

I see that the same way for the Messiah - His body was sown a natural body, but was raised a spiritual body - its glorified now.

When the saints die in their natural bodies they will be raised in glorified spiritual bodies but we will be who we are: a new creature that now living on earth that will become a glorified body. I will stand before God and receive rewards / crowns / really nice things.

Also Jesus told us that He would be coming back.
And Jesus will be Who we will see coming in the clouds with His angels.

'You see me You see the Father' - is how He will be seen when He returns.

Where the glorified body of the Son is now - is where the Father is and will be. The fullness of the Godhead in Jesus

[sis_perez]

So steve what about Acts 13 :30?????? So two raised that body?????

[jaxfam6]

Maybe if we take the time to consider what each is saying (were all apostolics here) it could be we mean the same thing but are delivering it differently. This is how I can explain it-

When we die our body will be sown a natural body, but will be raised a spiritual body (glorified).

I see that the same way for the Messiah - His body was sown a natural body, but was raised a spiritual body - its glorified now.

When the saints die in their natural bodies they will be raised in glorified spiritual bodies but we will be who we are: a new creature that now living on earth that will become a glorified body. I will stand before God and receive rewards / crowns / really nice things.

Also Jesus told us that He would be coming back.
And Jesus will be Who we will see coming in the clouds with His angels.

'You see me You see the Father' - is how He will be seen when He returns.

Where the glorified body of the Son is now - is where the Father is and will be. The fullness of the Godhead in Jesus

Good luck with that
there are some that do NOT want to see anything other than what THEY want to see
and no matter how much things are explained they can not see anything other than they way THEY see it
everything else does NOT make sense to them rather it means the same or not



:ursofunny

[jaxfam6]

sometimes you just got to shake the dust from your feet and move on

[sis_perez]

I see what you are saying citizen, but some seemed to have brought 2 Gods in the Picture and I only know of one. All I am wondering is that as far as beliefs, Why do some seem to believe that the son went into heaven. Yes, that Glorified body ascended into heaven, but that was NOT the son!! The sonship started in Mary and ended on the cross. When the son died God took that body over. It was his body. Just a mysterious discussion thats all.

[Steve Epley]

So steve what about Acts 13 :30?????? So two raised that body?????

Jesus is God! Thus God(the Eternal Spirit that indwelt Him) raised the body from the dead. Jn. 2:19 Are you saying Jesus is NOT God?

[Steve Epley]

I see what you are saying citizen, but some seemed to have brought 2 Gods in the Picture and I only know of one. All I am wondering is that as far as beliefs, Why do some seem to believe that the son went into heaven. Yes, that Glorified body ascended into heaven, but that was NOT the son!! The sonship started in Mary and ended on the cross. When the son died God took that body over. It was his body. Just a mysterious discussion thats all.

Hear the Apostle Paul:
"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is PASSED INTO the Heavens, Jesus the Son of God..." Heb. 4:14

Give us scripture that says the Son did NOT go to Heaven? I gave you Bible that says he did show me BY THE BIBLE where he did not?

[jaxfam6]

Hear the Apostle Paul:
"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is PASSED INTO the Heavens, Jesus the Son of God..." Heb. 4:14

Give us scripture that says the Son did NOT go to Heaven? I gave you Bible that says he did show me BY THE BIBLE where he did not?

Steve come on, how many times do you have to explain something before someone gets it? Don't you think it is time to move on? Love you man but sometimes you just don't know when to just drop it. If they haven't understood you by now they never will.

[citizen]

I see what you are saying citizen, but some seemed to have brought 2 Gods in the Picture and I only know of one. All I am wondering is that as far as beliefs, Why do some seem to believe that the son went into heaven. Yes, that Glorified body ascended into heaven, but that was NOT the son!! The sonship started in Mary and ended on the cross. When the son died God took that body over. It was his body. Just a mysterious discussion thats all.


Sis Perez we DO believe in 1 God just like you do...but consider the scripture Brother Epley introduced -
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
The author of Hebrews told us that the Son passed into the heavens. Thats very clear.

and this one which John wrote aproximately 60, 70 or more years after Jesus died on the cross for us:

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

The Son was speaking to the angel of the church of Thyatira (while up in heaven)
This same Son HAS eyes like a flame of fire - not HAD
This same Son's feet ARE like fine brass - not WERE like fine brass
The Son was being described as He is in heaven - after the cross.
The Father was not being described - Jesus the Son is His form.

[Sam]

The way I understand John 2:18-22; Acts 2:23-36; 10:38-43; 13:30; 26:23; Romans 1:3-4; 8:11 and Isaiah 26:19, Jesus as God raised the man Jesus from the dead.

[sis_perez]

that is what he WAS......He was the son before he DIED. He called things which were not as though they were. That is why the bible says he was manifested in the Flesh. Was there 2 spirits in that body? The bible says HE was in the world, the world was made by him, and the world know him not. When was the one that made the world in the world?
He clearly states in Rev 1 :8 I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith THE LORD, which is- which WAS, and which is to Come, the ALmighty. So the son was not in the beginning. So if the Lord is saying this, and God said to Wait for his son From Heaven, and Jesus is coming too- then are we all on the same page that Jesus Chirst is God Almighty? God said he did not No no other God.

[sis_perez]

Oh my God people. So you even consider the Language of the Bible? Please dont think that I am being smart. I never sat under Bishop SC Johnson, but I have heard his preaching. I was born way after he passed away. What he preached just makes sense. It seems like at some point we are on the same page and other points we are not. Does anyone believe what he preached concerining the Son of God?? If you dont than that will help me to understand what spirit is behind what each one writes. I stand firm to Believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty our Redeemer, Lord and Savior. One spirit with all these Different titles of what he was and is, who at one time WAS the Son. His life was no more when the blood was shed. I dare anyone to say that there was Blood in that Body that the Lord God Almighty himself carried back to heaven.

[sis_perez]

Citizen I noticed your post up there. And something that appeared strange is,...
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow;
And his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;
And his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars:
And out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:
And his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Who is the First and Last?

[sis_perez]

Rev 2:13
I am Alpha and Omega, THE BEGINNING and the END, the First and the Last? Who IS THIS TALKING???Was the son the Beginning??

[sis_perez]

Well folks, I am turning in for the night. But not without first saying that it seems to go from Gen- to -Rev and then coming right back in a circle.
In Isaiah, 44:6
Thus saith the LORD, the King of Isreal, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first and the last, and besides me, there is NO GOD.
So I come to the conclusion that the Spirit is what is confusing the CARNAL mind. One God. He is the Father, Holy Ghost, Comforter, Amen, First, Last, the Beginning and the End, and somehow he had one name which is Jesus. Do we all agree to this? Here he is called Lord, King of Isreal, and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts.
Good Night. God Bless you all!

[Steve Epley]

Oh my God people. So you even consider the Language of the Bible? Please dont think that I am being smart. I never sat under Bishop SC Johnson, but I have heard his preaching. I was born way after he passed away. What he preached just makes sense. It seems like at some point we are on the same page and other points we are not. Does anyone believe what he preached concerining the Son of God?? If you dont than that will help me to understand what spirit is behind what each one writes. I stand firm to Believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty our Redeemer, Lord and Savior. One spirit with all these Different titles of what he was and is, who at one time WAS the Son. His life was no more when the blood was shed. I dare anyone to say that there was Blood in that Body that the Lord God Almighty himself carried back to heaven.

I never heard of anyone that believed the body that went to Heaven had blood in it? He shed his blood.

[Steve Epley]

Citizen I noticed your post up there. And something that appeared strange is,...
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow;
And his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;
And his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars:
And out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:
And his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Who is the First and Last?

Jesus!

[Steve Epley]

Rev 2:13
I am Alpha and Omega, THE BEGINNING and the END, the First and the Last? Who IS THIS TALKING???Was the son the Beginning??

Jesus!

[Steve Epley]

Well folks, I am turning in for the night. But not without first saying that it seems to go from Gen- to -Rev and then coming right back in a circle.
In Isaiah, 44:6
Thus saith the LORD, the King of Isreal, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first and the last, and besides me, there is NO GOD.
So I come to the conclusion that the Spirit is what is confusing the CARNAL mind. One God. He is the Father, Holy Ghost, Comforter, Amen, First, Last, the Beginning and the End, and somehow he had one name which is Jesus. Do we all agree to this? Here he is called Lord, King of Isreal, and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts.
Good Night. God Bless you all!

Jesus!

[citizen]

...The body had no more life. The son was gone. The life was in the Blood. In 3 days the spirit got back inside that body and Changed it. The son(BLood) never returned. So that was the Father confusing the Carnal mind...

Are you saying the Son WAS the blood ONLY? Are you saying the Body was Not the Son? Are you saying the blood was the Son and the flesh was the Father?

[sis_perez]

The life was in the Blood. The blood was shed. Now we have a lifeless "body" So the son could not have gotten up. That was God that raised that body. Yes, God the Spirit. Just like I said, the spirit came out of it so it could die. Then the spirit (GOD)Got back in it. God Raised that body. The son was gone. But he is still called what he was - in which he was the son. And the Lord God Almightys "name" is Jesus. His name was a Secret before the new testiment.

[sis_perez]

So Steve you are so right. Jesus is the Fist and Last. - Yes, the Lord God Almighty he cerainly is the First and last.
Isaiah 44:6-8, "Thus saith the LORD says -- : I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

[citizen]

The life was in the Blood. The blood was shed. Now we have a lifeless "body" So the son could not have gotten up. That was God that raised that body. Yes, God the Spirit. Just like I said, the spirit came out of it so it could die. Then the spirit (GOD)Got back in it. God Raised that body. The son was gone. But as the "Record" Goes, he is still called the son. And his "name" is Jesus.

The Son was not raised? What was raised? and what does this Hebrew 4:14 mean?


Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Please explain.

[sis_perez]

That Glorified body that God took back to heaven is still called "The Son." God has all power and authority. He was in the world, (This was the SON) The world was Made by HIM and the world knew HIM not. Well if they knew he was God, they would not have crucified him. So to all of those that Believe God is still the Son, Did the son make the World?

[sis_perez]

Did the SON of GOD make the World?????? When was he that was in the World make the World????

[sis_perez]

The Body was raised.

[citizen]

So you do agree :) the Son was crucified and the Son was taken back to heaven. I told you we are saying the same thing but delivering it from a different angle.

Lets take a deep breath, Sis Perez.

[citizen]

Maybe your pastor/bishop explains it sort of differently. But he knows that Jesus the Son is in Heaven now.

[sis_perez]

I believe The son was crucified yes. God raised and glorified that BODY. God wore that BODY back to heaven. God is nobodies son. That is not the son in that is heaven now. That is God and God is a Spirit. The Lord is a Spirt, The Holy Ghost is a Spirit. There is only One spirit. Cant you see?

[sis_perez]

That glorified body is a spiritual body. Why do you think he Appeared? When Thomas saw him, he said, My Lord and My God. That was God that he saw. Where do you see when Jesus walked the earth him appearing? That was a body of flesh and blood. He died. He Gave his life. Remember God got back into that Body. God raised that Body. It is really weird, but it is a mystery and if people dont just consider it, they wont be able to see it. I know that the bible say that the son ascended into the heavens and wait for my son from heaven, but if you say he is the son in heaven now, that would make 2 Gods. God said he didnt know no other God. And he said there would be no other God formed after him. God cannot lie. So all these different titles belong God. He is called the son because that is what he was. The Bible clearly says if you believe there is one God you doest well. The devil believes and trembles.

[sis_perez]

Good Night All.

[warrior]

I believe The son was crucified yes. God raised and glorified that BODY. God wore that BODY back to heaven. God is nobodies son. That is not the son in that is heaven now. That is God and God is a Spirit. The Lord is a Spirt, The Holy Ghost is a Spirit. There is only One spirit. Cant you see?


I have just one question: What should one do with the scriptures that say that the Son is on the right side of the father?

Do you just ignore them?

oops that was two questions. emmm scuse me.