Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 328085)

Elder .... I do not see how your quoting of 1 Corinthians 15:44 as prooftext that he ascended twice ....???

A careful reading of the text and passage you've provided ... all of 1 Corinthians 15 lends credence that our Victorious Lamb rose initially w/ a spiritual body ... incorruptible glorified .... w/ eternal life and having defeated Death.

We find the Creator who blew life into the first Adam making him a living soul blowing this eternal life provided by His Sacrifice and Resurrection into his disciples who continued to believe.... on Him .... in John 20 ... as their GLORIFIED Savior. A glorification we both agreed had already happened by verse 22 of John 17:

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

he later says:

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


It is this Spirit of Christ, the breath of the Incarnate Word in us, that quickens us to his promise of newness of eternal life.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 327939)

Nathan,

I see the connection you have made for your conclusion that he was glorified between his apparition to Mary and his apparition to Thomas,
10 verses later. Are we sure there is accurate based on scriptural evidence?

Yet, in th KJV ... Jesus does say "Do not touch me ... " but did he really say this in that connotation of him not being yet glorified? Does HIS glorification happen based on his physical body being ascended to heaven, post resurrection, after his 3rd day appearance to Mary?

John 20:17

Mary Magdalene recognized Jesus only when he spoke her name, "Mary." She replied, "Rabboni" ("teacher"). It was then that Jesus told her not to touch him, giving as the reason for this the fact that he had not yet "returned" to his Father (John 20:17).

and then 10 verses later it states ...

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

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One writer gives a more plausible reason for him telling Mary this:

"The meaning of the original Greek in the New Testament here, though, conveyed a meaning more like "Don’t hold on to me," or "Don’t cling to me"—which Mary Magdalene, in her impetuosity and great joy at recognizing Jesus alive after what had seemed the irreparable loss of Good Friday, evidently attempted to do. (We know from Matthew 28:9 that the women embraced, touched, the feet of the risen Jesus when they saw him for the first time). Some modern versions of the New Testament such as the New American Bible and the Revised Standard Version accordingly translate the passage as, "Don’t cling to me," or "Don’t hold on to me," having dropped the word "touch" entirely.

But why did Jesus not want Mary Magdalene to touch or cling to him? Ten verses farther on in the same chapter of John’s Gospel, Jesus tells doubting Thomas to touch him: "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless but believing" (John 20:28). Jesus wanted to prove to Thomas that his glorified body was real, that he was no ghost or apparition, but that he had indeed risen from the dead.

That is why he gives as the reason why she should not touch him that he had "not yet ascended to the Father." As Mary Magdalene no doubt well knew, along with the other disciples of Jesus, Jesus had promised before his crucifixion, "A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me" (John 16:16)"

Keep in mind, at first, she seemed not to recognize him .... in his resurrected body. She thought he was the gardener. [John 17:15]

"This non-recognition of their Master in his glorified body was the typical first impression of the disciples who encountered the risen Jesus. It happened on the road to Emmaus, as Luke relates (24:13–35). It happened to the group of the apostles on the shore of the Sea of Galilee (John 21:1–23). Mary Magdalene recognized Jesus only when he spoke her name, "Mary." She replied, "Rabboni" ("teacher"). It was then that Jesus told her not to touch him, giving as the reason for this the fact that he had not yet "returned" to his Father (John 20:17)."
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Also, Neck would you say that the Christ, or the Lamb, was glorified in the description you've given ???...

because Jesus said he had shared glory w/ the father from the beginning. ....

Below is the breakdown of the Greek to produce a more accurate version of John 17:5 as the Greek transliterated text -

Kaí nún dóxasón me sú Páter pará seautoó teé dóxee heé eíchon pró toú tón kósmon eínai pará soí.

An appropriate translation for John 17:5, reflecting the contrast between the glory Jesus shared in the transfiguration with the existence or condition of the world’s inhabitants reads as follows:

John 17:5 And soon, at the fit time, glorify me with Thyself Father, in the power of Your presence, with the magnificence, kingly dignity and honor I held together with You in preeminence to this world existence.” (TAT)

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Clearly, Jesus had glorified God and shared glory w/ the Father, BEFORE his ministry, no? His prayer, in Gethsaname is to glorify, the Son so that the Son may glorify the Father.


1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Here is an outline I found in researching this that speaks of Jesus glory before coming to earth and during his ministry.

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In addition, let's consider that after the Triumphant Entry when Jesus predicts his death in John 12....

A voice from heaven, the Father?, states that his name has been glorified but will glorify it again, through the Son.

John 12:


27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"
Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
34The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ[f] will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"

Also, doesn't Jesus refer to his being lifted up, or glorified ... as a reference to HIS DEATH, as evidenced by the passage just quoted?

Originally Posted by J-Roc (Post 328103)

I found this interesting in that article:


Leon Morris points out the serious error of teaching that Christ presented His blood in heaven. It would imply “that Christ’s atoning work was not completed on the cross but that he still had to do some atoning act in heaven like the earthly high priest who took the blood into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement.” Not only is this theory unbiblical but it also gives support to the Roman Catholic/Anglo-Catholic theology of the perpetual offering of the blood of Christ. Heretical groups argue this point to a destructive (cf. 2 Peter 2:1) extreme in teaching that the blood of Christ is used as a perpetual offering in heaven. The theory that Christ needed to take His blood with Him into heaven denies the work of Christ on the cross as being finished. The sacrifice for sin was completed on the cross. However, the subsequent benefits of Christ’s sacrifice extend to the elect and heaven itself (Hebrews 9:23). The appropriation of the benefits of Christ’s death to the elect is the result of His death and victory on the cross. When Scripture states that believers are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7), this does not mean that the literal blood of Christ is physically applied to them; rather, that Christ’s shed blood on the cross is God’s righteous basis for forgiving sinners who have placed their trust for salvation in Christ alone. It is the Spirit that gives life, not the blood (John 6:63). Scripture speaks of a spiritual application rather than a material application.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 328077)

Paul said sown a natural body raised a spiritual body.1Cor. 15:44 Thus He raised incorruptible glorified that is.
Yes I do think Jesus ascended twice. When He told Mary not to touch him for he had not ascended He was functioning as the Great High Priest carrying the blood to the Mercy Seat into Heaven itself to finish the atonement as pictured in the atonement. Heb.9:12
Then He returned and they were able to touch Him for he had fulfilled that act. And then ascended into Heaven until He comes and recieves His church unto Himself.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 327894)

John speaks about Jesus being glorified in various instances .... throughout his book ....
We often teach that Jesus had a glorified body POST RESURRECTION ... yet some of us also teach the he was glorified after his ASCENSION when applying John 7:39 to "tongues or hell" doctrine?

WHEN WAS HE GLORIFIED? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

Please support your answers w/ scripture.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 328085)

Elder .... I do not see how your quoting of 1 Corinthians 15:44 is prooftext that he ascended twice ....???

A careful reading of the text and passage you've provided ... all of 1 Corinthians 15 lends credence that our Victorious Lamb rose initially w/ a spiritual body ... incorruptible glorified .... w/ eternal life and having defeated Death.

We find the Creator, who blew life into the first Adam making him a living soul, breathing from the eternal life provided by His Sacrifice and Resurrection into his disciples who continued to believe.... on Him .... in John 20 ... as their GLORIFIED Savior. A glorification we both agreed had already happened by verse 22 of John 17:

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

he later says:

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


It is this Spirit of Christ, the breath of the Incarnate Word in us, that quickens us to his promise of newness of eternal life.

Originally Posted by J-Roc (Post 328103)

I found this interesting in that article:


Leon Morris points out the serious error of teaching that Christ presented His blood in heaven. It would imply “that Christ’s atoning work was not completed on the cross but that he still had to do some atoning act in heaven like the earthly high priest who took the blood into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement.” Not only is this theory unbiblical but it also gives support to the Roman Catholic/Anglo-Catholic theology of the perpetual offering of the blood of Christ. Heretical groups argue this point to a destructive (cf. 2 Peter 2:1) extreme in teaching that the blood of Christ is used as a perpetual offering in heaven. The theory that Christ needed to take His blood with Him into heaven denies the work of Christ on the cross as being finished. The sacrifice for sin was completed on the cross. However, the subsequent benefits of Christ’s sacrifice extend to the elect and heaven itself (Hebrews 9:23). The appropriation of the benefits of Christ’s death to the elect is the result of His death and victory on the cross. When Scripture states that believers are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7), this does not mean that the literal blood of Christ is physically applied to them; rather, that Christ’s shed blood on the cross is God’s righteous basis for forgiving sinners who have placed their trust for salvation in Christ alone. It is the Spirit that gives life, not the blood (John 6:63). Scripture speaks of a spiritual application rather than a material application.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 328077)

Paul said sown a natural body raised a spiritual body.1Cor. 15:44 Thus He raised incorruptible glorified that is.
Yes I do think Jesus ascended twice. When He told Mary not to touch him for he had not ascended He was functioning as the Great High Priest carrying the blood to the Mercy Seat into Heaven itself to finish the atonement as pictured in the atonement. Heb.9:12
Then He returned and they were able to touch Him for he had fulfilled that act. And then ascended into Heaven until He comes and recieves His church unto Himself.