Validate by Experience

[NotforSale]

With age, we become more aware of reality. Death, failure, victory, sickness, relationships, politics, where we live, and much more, all combine to give people what only time can deliver; Experience. We find out what worked, what didn’t, who lied, who told the truth, what real love is about, and how flawed mankind is. After years of this compilation of experience, we can assess what life IS, not what it WAS, or what it MIGHT be. Experience gives us reality, and can bring a man into focus of the facts, not fiction.

Where this is most crucial, and where a man must apply his experience, is in his search for understanding God. If a man plows past his experience to conceive God, he will continue to build a flawed fantasy. This type of fantasy will lead not only this man into further darkness; he will pollute his influence to all who know him. God is reflected by him, to others of less experience. The result is devastating. People follow, only to find much of what someone said is either a lie, or a farfetched theory. Because our knowledge is more based upon another’s, we fail and fall into the pit of a fairytale, drawing conclusions about people from the vain distance of our own heart and true experiences.

Remember, God is who man says He is. God has written no Scripture, book, or word that he has delivered to this World. Everything we rely on to give people understanding about God is by man. We are at the complete mercy of our ability to tell others the ultimatum of our Creator. When I was a young man, those responsible to give me concept and truth about God were, yes, men. God never spoke to me, came to me, nor revealed Himself to me. Any impression on the heart was what any man can feel what might be “God”. People saying God has spoken to them cannot VALIDATE it was in fact, God. It is only assumed, then passed on as “God said”, where people begin to embrace this person’s concept. Even if the Bible says “God said”, remember, man wrote that. We cannot validate it, only accept it if we choose.

If we look at the entire World, all Nations and Peoples do this. God is who any one group says He is. They believe they are right, and become fanatical in their opinion or dogma. So much so, wars are triggered, hatred burning in them regarding anyone who may challenge their idea. A perfect example is the Muslims and the Jews. If Iran had their way, Israel would be leveled and destroyed. They both believe they have God figured out and that God is on their side. They both use “Books” to determine who God is, and how He has worked on their behalf in the past. Man places God in his corner, and they come out into the middle of the ring with God as their sponsor. They draw swords, slaughtering each other in “God We Trust”.

This example is nothing but Religion, or man claiming hold onto an IDEA about God. Instead of looking at their own experience they make the call to battle stations, building bombs and guns, ready to defend another man’s idea from yesterday. Forget today, forget my own experience, forget my feelings about another human being, just die for a “Book” that someone claimed IS GOD explained.

If explaining God works with the Bible, we wouldn’t be deluged by innumerable religions. The Bible gives us many ideas, none of which seem to really come together. In Exodus, God is called the God of War, but in the New Testament He seems to have this great Love for lost humanity and no desire for us to die by the sword. But then, suddenly Eternal Hell appears in the Christian way, but nowhere to be found in the Jewish way of old. We use writings from a man who had 700 wives who were called many strange women, who led Solomon into idolatry, and we use him to give us concept and idea about God. The Bible becomes a book where we make it say what we want it to say in defense of our Faith, not our experience.

I have watched religion carry many of us into a false idea. God will heal us if we pray. Give us peace that passes all understanding. Save our children if we raise them up right. Keep us from divorce. Make us overcomers. In 30 years I’ve seen so much failure and misguided truths in our Religion. People have told me about their visions, or how God has spoken to them, only to find out later none of what they said came true. People literally built their concept of God upon what they said, but experience proved otherwise. Looking into the archives I have, the people who have come and gone from “Our Faith” are staggering. Complete heartbreak, trial, storm, and the plain trials of life discouraged them because initial concepts of God became lies later on down the road.

God didn’t heal them, save their children, mend their marriage, give them peace, or fulfill a prophecy. The emotional altar experience and Pentecostal Hype, died, while God was misconceived. They came with their questions, were deemed as rebellious, and cast out as backsliders. They once knew, now they are headed for Eternal Fire. Trophies in Hell. Lost Forever. Banished from God without hope. Haters of Truth.

Unless we come to the place of becoming honest about life and experience, we will continue to portray God as heartless, yet loving, forgiving, yet unforgiving, kind, yet angry, merciful, yet judgmental. The cries of children, families, and people will be dulled by our WAR DRUM. We will march right into Amalek and KILL every living, breathing thing, driving a sword through the chest of babies, women, and children, and then tell everyone to love our enemies, while quoting, “Thou Shalt not KILL”.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

With age, we become more aware of reality. Death, failure, victory, sickness, relationships, politics, where we live, and much more, all combine to give people what only time can deliver; Experience. We find out what worked, what didn’t, who lied, who told the truth, what real love is about, and how flawed mankind is. After years of this compilation of experience, we can assess what life IS, not what it WAS, or what it MIGHT be. Experience gives us reality, and can bring a man into focus of the facts, not fiction.

Where this is most crucial, and where a man must apply his experience, is in his search for understanding God. If a man plows past his experience to conceive God, he will continue to build a flawed fantasy. This type of fantasy will lead not only this man into further darkness; he will pollute his influence to all who know him. God is reflected by him, to others of less experience. The result is devastating. People follow, only to find much of what someone said is either a lie, or a farfetched theory. Because our knowledge is more based upon another’s, we fail and fall into the pit of a fairytale, drawing conclusions about people from the vain distance of our own heart and true experiences.

Remember, God is who man says He is. God has written no Scripture, book, or word that he has delivered to this World. Everything we rely on to give people understanding about God is by man. We are at the complete mercy of our ability to tell others the ultimatum of our Creator. When I was a young man, those responsible to give me concept and truth about God were, yes, men. God never spoke to me, came to me, nor revealed Himself to me. Any impression on the heart was what any man can feel what might be “God”. People saying God has spoken to them cannot VALIDATE it was in fact, God. It is only assumed, then passed on as “God said”, where people begin to embrace this person’s concept. Even if the Bible says “God said”, remember, man wrote that. We cannot validate it, only accept it if we choose.

If we look at the entire World, all Nations and Peoples do this. God is who any one group says He is. They believe they are right, and become fanatical in their opinion or dogma. So much so, wars are triggered, hatred burning in them regarding anyone who may challenge their idea. A perfect example is the Muslims and the Jews. If Iran had their way, Israel would be leveled and destroyed. They both believe they have God figured out and that God is on their side. They both use “Books” to determine who God is, and how He has worked on their behalf in the past. Man places God in his corner, and they come out into the middle of the ring with God as their sponsor. They draw swords, slaughtering each other in “God We Trust”.

This example is nothing but Religion, or man claiming hold onto an IDEA about God. Instead of looking at their own experience they make the call to battle stations, building bombs and guns, ready to defend another man’s idea from yesterday. Forget today, forget my own experience, forget my feelings about another human being, just die for a “Book” that someone claimed IS GOD explained.

If explaining God works with the Bible, we wouldn’t be deluged by innumerable religions. The Bible gives us many ideas, none of which seem to really come together. In Exodus, God is called the God of War, but in the New Testament He seems to have this great Love for lost humanity and no desire for us to die by the sword. But then, suddenly Eternal Hell appears in the Christian way, but nowhere to be found in the Jewish way of old. We use writings from a man who had 700 wives who were called many strange women, who led Solomon into idolatry, and we use him to give us concept and idea about God. The Bible becomes a book where we make it say what we want it to say in defense of our Faith, not our experience.

I have watched religion carry many of us into a false idea. God will heal us if we pray. Give us peace that passes all understanding. Save our children if we raise them up right. Keep us from divorce. Make us overcomers. In 30 years I’ve seen so much failure and misguided truths in our Religion. People have told me about their visions, or how God has spoken to them, only to find out later none of what they said came true. People literally built their concept of God upon what they said, but experience proved otherwise. Looking into the archives I have, the people who have come and gone from “Our Faith” are staggering. Complete heartbreak, trial, storm, and the plain trials of life discouraged them because initial concepts of God became lies later on down the road.

God didn’t heal them, save their children, mend their marriage, give them peace, or fulfill a prophecy. The emotional altar experience and Pentecostal Hype, died, while God was misconceived. They came with their questions, were deemed as rebellious, and cast out as backsliders. They once knew, now they are headed for Eternal Fire. Trophies in Hell. Lost Forever. Banished from God without hope. Haters of Truth.

Unless we come to the place of becoming honest about life and experience, we will continue to portray God as heartless, yet loving, forgiving, yet unforgiving, kind, yet angry, merciful, yet judgmental. The cries of children, families, and people will be dulled by our WAR DRUM. We will march right into Amalek and KILL every living, breathing thing, driving a sword through the chest of babies, women, and children, and then tell everyone to love our enemies, while quoting, “Thou Shalt not KILL”.

Great Post. While I don't agree with you 100% there is alot of truth in what you have said. Too often God is preached not as he really is but as we want him to be. He is preached as a healer, but often people go without being healed. Jesus didn't heal everyone in his day, why should anyone expect God to heal everyone today. Jesus often spoke of how hard it would be to follow him yet all that ever gets focused on today is his blessings and how easy these make it to live for him. I think the best way to say the truth is that God is God and God will do as God wants to do.

[noeticknight]

Your thoughts are appreciated!

I contend, however, that experience can only get you so far. And at times, it may be easier to travel the road of skepticism, for it is a downhill incline. I know, because at times, I have been guilty myself. I have also found, through experience, that confusion can be a result of doubt. If faith waxes weak, then oft times, our mind becomes capable of distorting our perspective.

Case in point, consider the Old Testament example in your post regarding the cultural differences. Can we truly sit back and judge righteously from our generation those things that took place hundreds of years ago in another part of the world? Until you have witnessed (Deuteronomy 12:30-31) in the same manner as the Israelites, you may find yourself in an awkward place condemning other cultures for their reactions or interventions. And I will point out, that even today, certain societies don't evenly match the same experiences, or push for the same ideals as observed in our nation. I concede that sin is sin, but I do not believe that a seamless, perfect humanity should have existed in the Bible to make it more believable. My friend, the opposite is what makes it believable! The mistakes and shortcomings of individuals and entire nations is embarrassingly honest at times. In its most truest sense, we can find ourselves in the passages of scripture, which transcends time to relate and combine with our humanity.

If I could mention the experience of one of my favorite writers. C.S. Lewis writes of the Bible, and the Gospels in particular:

"I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this [gospel] text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage...or else, some unknown [ancient] writer...without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic narrative..."

In times when my own experience fails me, I find myself crawling back to the words of Jesus. They always comfort me when nothing else can. (Luke 24:38-39)

[Godsdrummer]

NFS

There is a certain gloom in your post, that worries me. You see I have found if one does not have the relationship with God like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Samual, David. and others than most anything can and will shake their faith in God and his word. This world has driffted far from that place. We are in for the hype. When the hype is gone we are gone. So sad. It is ok to question everything as we should. But first you must know for certain God is real, you must have a deep rooted faith in God. Then question question, question. You see I know the written word came from God for I have always found the answers to everything between its pages. What I do know is man has mistranslated the word and misconsrewed Gods intent and meaning that to many they would question it being the word of God.

For any to do what I have done in my life they would have left God completly, to study and then find all the principles you preached and beleived were traditions and not the word of God.
And yes we can validate by experiance to a certain degree. But we can never stop at any point and say we have arrived, for the first 25 years of my life I studied holiness preached holiness, preached you must be save by repentance, baptism and infilment with the Holy Ghost. Somewhere around the age 29-30 I started to restudy with a differant frame of mind. I looked at every passage I used to use to preach one way. And stopped and looked from a differant point of veiw.
The point is the word never changed my heart changed I was able to see things from Gods point of veiw.

But now I don't stand in judgement of others in their missunderstandings whether they be christian, budist, morman, or jehovah witness, to name a few. For we are simply to be a light or salt in the world. Funny thing about light it is not invasive, at least it is not harmful it simply gives light. what do people see when we walk ito their lives. They should never see us they should instead become aware of their suroundings.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Your thoughts are appreciated!

I contend, however, that experience can only get you so far. And at times, it may be easier to travel the road of skepticism, for it is a downhill incline. I know, because at times, I have been guilty myself. I have also found, through experience, that confusion can be a result of doubt. If faith waxes weak, then oft times, our mind becomes capable of distorting our perspective.

Case in point, consider the Old Testament example in your post regarding the cultural differences. Can we truly sit back and judge righteously from our generation those things that took place hundreds of years ago in another part of the world? Until you have witnessed (Deuteronomy 12:30-31) in the same manner as the Israelites, you may find yourself in an awkward place condemning other cultures for their reactions or interventions. And I will point out, that even today, certain societies don't evenly match the same experiences, or push for the same ideals as observed in our nation. I concede that sin is sin, but I do not believe that a seamless, perfect humanity should have existed in the Bible to make it more believable. My friend, the opposite is what makes it believable! The mistakes and shortcomings of individuals and entire nations is embarrassingly honest at times. In its most truest sense, we can find ourselves in the passages of scripture, which transcends time to relate and combine with our humanity.

If I could mention the experience of one of my favorite writers. C.S. Lewis writes of the Bible, and the Gospels in particular:

"I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this [gospel] text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage...or else, some unknown [ancient] writer...without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic narrative..."

In times when my own experience fails me, I find myself crawling back to the words of Jesus. They always comfort me when nothing else can. (Luke 24:38-39)

I agree. Experience will only take us so far. We do need to rely on the accounts of History to confirm our ultimatums in life. I do appreciate historical accounts that share the rise and fall of humanity. This one thing is for certain, though; Man is basically the same as he has been since the beginning. There is nothing new under the sun. Killing is killing, no matter what time frame you live in. Adultery is adultery. Love is love. Hate is hate.

We complicate our lives with the technicalities of presumption, not experience. Experience reveals the flaws of what we read about in the past. Experience unlocks the door to those who've lied to us on pages of a book. Experience shows the truth about who we are, and what makes us tick.

In my Bible study last night, I gave this example; Marriage. Newlyweds make claims, have ideas, and devote to promises. But, only experience reveals the truth. Only experience crushes the fantasy.

When my wife engaged in vows 29 years ago, we had ideas, but no experience. My wife became so ill during her first pregnancy she almost had to be hospitalized. She weighed less after the baby was born than before she got pregnant. 3 months later, our son died of Crib Death. This was not in the plan. We never expected this. But, it became our experience, our reality. Watching my wife crumble under her emotion of losing that baby is beyond words. Going to the crib, reaching down to feel our son not breathing scarred her mind for years. We still cry when we talk about our little boy. Touching death revealed much about who we were. The joy of our vows was gone. Our house was still, the cry of our baby gone forever. Only the tears of my wife did I feel, and her moans of grief were daily.

We went on to have 3 more children, who are all adults today and have their own children. Failure, sickness, and much more have caused me to see life through a different lens. What I used to say, I don't say anymore, because of experience. When mothers cry from losing their son, I don’t need a text book. I hear their moan and feel their pain.

When the Israelites went into Amalek to slaughter children, I’m sorry, but I have a hard time with God condoning this. Unless we are willing to kill children ourselves, we have no business telling this story with authority. My own experience see’s the mothers of these homes, screaming for mercy as these men went from place to place with blood in their eyes. This was done in the name of the Lord, according to Scripture. My question is: Who validates this??? Those with no experience? Those who won’t kill the baby?

I also expressed to the church, in the beginning God created a man and a woman to build the Family. This was before Bibles, religion, war, hunger, and everything else we deal with on this Planet. Through experience, I see as Adam saw. We created children, going on to love the imperfect. I don't cast my children out because they fail, sin, or they go into faraway places of ignoring me. I love my children and would never cast them into flames of Hell. I cry when they hurt me, and lose sleep when they lose their way. But never would I do to them what we tell others God is going to do to them.

If God made the Family first, this tells me that the experience learned by being devoted to this initial plan was God’s intention to teach us about Him. This relational marvel called the Family, requiring mercy, love, patience, forgiveness, and utter devotion will build a healthy concept of our Creator. Unless we revolutionize our theory, we will continue to plunge our enemies over the cliff and into the abyss of Eternal Fire. This is Religions Revenge, not God’s love for imperfect people.

The Bible is just a Book, built by men who expressed what “God told them”, just like men today say, “God told me”. It’s a book of History, full of error. It’s a Book that confuses the World about God. Like I’ve stated numerous times, if the Bible was simple, and God expressed in the Bible was pure, we would have unity by it, not WAR.


Experience is the only thing that really gets me past this, because experience is REAL.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I agree. Experience will only take us so far. We do need to rely on the accounts of History to confirm our ultimatums in life. I do appreciate historical accounts that share the rise and fall of humanity. This one thing is for certain, though; Man is basically the same as he has been since the beginning. There is nothing new under the sun. Killing is killing, no matter what time frame you live in. Adultery is adultery. Love is love. Hate is hate.

We complicate our lives with the technicalities of presumption, not experience. Experience reveals the flaws of what we read about in the past. Experience unlocks the door to those who've lied to us on pages of a book. Experience shows the truth about who we are, and what makes us tick.

In my Bible study last night, I gave this example; Marriage. Newlyweds make claims, have ideas, and devote to promises. But, only experience reveals the truth. Only experience crushes the fantasy.

When my wife engaged in vows 29 years ago, we had ideas, but no experience. My wife became so ill during her first pregnancy she almost had to be hospitalized. She weighed less after the baby was born than before she got pregnant. 3 months later, our son died of Crib Death. This was not in the plan. We never expected this. But, it became our experience, our reality. Watching my wife crumble under her emotion of losing that baby is beyond words. Going to the crib, reaching down to feel our son not breathing scarred her mind for years. We still cry when we talk about our little boy. Touching death revealed much about who we were. The joy of our vows was gone. Our house was still, the cry of our baby gone forever. Only the tears of my wife did I feel, and her moans of grief were daily.

We went on to have 3 more children, who are all adults today and have their own children. Failure, sickness, and much more have caused me to see life through a different lens. What I used to say, I don't say anymore, because of experience. When mothers cry from losing their son, I don’t need a text book. I hear their moan and feel their pain.

When the Israelites went into Amalek to slaughter children, I’m sorry, but I have a hard time with God condoning this. Unless we are willing to kill children ourselves, we have no business telling this story with authority. My own experience see’s the mothers of these homes, screaming for mercy as these men went from place to place with blood in their eyes. This was done in the name of the Lord, according to Scripture. My question is: Who validates this??? Those with no experience? Those who won’t kill the baby?

I also expressed to the church, in the beginning God created a man and a woman to build the Family. This was before Bibles, religion, war, hunger, and everything else we deal with on this Planet. Through experience, I see as Adam saw. We created children, going on to love the imperfect. I don't cast my children out because they fail, sin, or they go into faraway places of ignoring me. I love my children and would never cast them into flames of Hell. I cry when they hurt me, and lose sleep when they lose their way. But never would I do to them what we tell others God is going to do to them.

If God made the Family first, this tells me that the experience learned by being devoted to this initial plan was God’s intention to teach us about Him. This relational marvel called the Family, requiring mercy, love, patience, forgiveness, and utter devotion will build a healthy concept of our Creator. Unless we revolutionize our theory, we will continue to plunge our enemies over the cliff and into the abyss of Eternal Fire. This is Religions Revenge, not God’s love for imperfect people.

The Bible is just a Book, built by men who expressed what “God told them”, just like men today say, “God told me”. It’s a book of History, full of error. It’s a Book that confuses the World about God. Like I’ve stated numerous times, if the Bible was simple, and God expressed in the Bible was pure, we would have unity by it, not WAR.


Experience is the only thing that really gets me past this, because experience is REAL.

This is great. It says so much more eloquence what I have thought for quite some time. That there are only two possibilities when it comes to knowing about God. Either we can discern what he is like philosophically from necessity or we can discern what God is like through experience and observation. Personally I like philosophy but it can never tell you about what really is, it can only tell you what can be if some premise is true and what cannot be some premise is not true. Experience and observation is the only hope we have of knowing what really is.

I've often wondered if all the stories about God from the bible were collected and only them examined with no prior ideas about any of God's characteristics what would be revealed about God. I'm sure a vastly different conception of God would be obtained than what many Christians currently have. In other words, it seems many of the bible stories reveal conflicting characteristics about God to what Christians perceive him as being.

So how should we discern what God is like, from experiences and stories that we attribute to him, or from the generalizations we say about him?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Great Post. While I don't agree with you 100% there is alot of truth in what you have said. Too often God is preached not as he really is but as we want him to be. He is preached as a healer, but often people go without being healed. Jesus didn't heal everyone in his day, why should anyone expect God to heal everyone today. Jesus often spoke of how hard it would be to follow him yet all that ever gets focused on today is his blessings and how easy these make it to live for him. I think the best way to say the truth is that God is God and God will do as God wants to do.

Glad to see you searching. Truth is not always as clear as we would like it to be. People in general have one main weakness; We are looking for something PERFECT (Utopia). We come apart when what we thought was perfect, is not. So we wind up defending our concept of perfect, at the cost of a lie (Tradition). Tradition is just the imperfect wearing the mask of perfect.

A great truth of my life is when I discovered, the deaf, retarded, or mentally handicapped are not devil possessed............Experience at work.

My brother in law, who had schizophrenia (now deceased), in times past would have been considered devil possessed by past religions. Experience has proven once again, to give us light in the darkness.

[crakjak]

Very deep and thought provoking, most of us are not able to consider such things....it actually takes more faith to be in relationship with God when we admit things are not as we have been led to believe in so many areas of life.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Glad to see you searching. Truth is not always as clear as we would like it to be. People in general have one main weakness; We are looking for something PERFECT (Utopia). We come apart when what we thought was perfect, is not. So we wind up defending our concept of perfect, at the cost of a lie (Tradition). Tradition is just the imperfect wearing the mask of perfect.

A great truth of my life is when I discovered, the deaf, retarded, or mentally handicapped are not devil possessed............Experience at work.

My brother in law, who had schizophrenia (now deceased), in times past would have been considered devil possessed by past religions. Experience has proven once again, to give us light in the darkness.

Yeah, it is easier to just write the hard cases off, than to actually love as Jesus loved. www.coventryreserve.org

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Very deep and thought provoking, most of us are not able to consider such things....it actually takes more faith to be in relationship with God when we admit things are not as we have been led to believe in so many areas of life.

I agree cj. My initial response to NFS on this thread was weak and insufficient for the significance and truth of his thoughts. "The older I get, the less I know" quote has become my mantra of late. I now view my spiritual journey as this sort of upward (I hope) continuum propelled by my own experiences, intellectual reasoning, and faith. My specific beliefs are tentative and in a state of flux I think.