Obedience And Works Question ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.

How would explain the difference obedience and works ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Now I have views on this,but I'm fishing to hear how others explain this.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.

How would explain the difference obedience and works ?

If it burns fewer than 100 calories, it doesn't count as a 'work'.

(j/k )

[Michael The Disciple]

Must be a difficult topic?

When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".

Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20

He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.

However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.

1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5

Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.

Just one example might be:

You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.

So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.

You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.

This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.

I guess that will do for a start?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Must be a difficult topic?

When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".

Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20

He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.

However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.

1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5

Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.

Just one example might be:

You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.

So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.

You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.

This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.

I guess that will do for a start?

Thanks for the input.

[LUKE2447]

It is about source. He is the source of salvation to them that obey him. Heb 5:9

My effort or his leading of righteousness. Without faith(response, reliance on him) it is impossible to please God. Faith is used more in term of a relational sense in contrast of a isolated sense in "works themselves." As to make the work the salvation source is to seperate it from the author. Works are the context of faith. Thus togethor. To just say works is to make it the source than reliance upon God.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Must be a difficult topic?

When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".

Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20

He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.

However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.

1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5

Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.

Just one example might be:

You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.

So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.

You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.

This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.

I guess that will do for a start?

Not to derail the thread but do you have a lot of experience in picking up hitchhikers or people broke down? I have a couple of times but just curious. You can start a thread on it if you want to.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.

How would explain the difference obedience and works ?

That is the MOST important question in Christianity, in my opinion.

You see… we are not told to live “for” Christ but rather “in” Christ. God doesn’t desire that we live according to rules that only modify behavior, but don’t change one’s nature. God desires that we be ONE with Jesus, and this is what Jesus taught. We are not supposed to live our lives trying to please Him. We are to DIE and cease all work and effort at salvation, seeking ONENESS with Jesus. The Christian life isn’t something we DO in service to the Lord. The Christian life is dying to self and our own works… and allowing JESUS Himself to live out the divine life THROUGH us.

For example, a legalist will wake up thinking of all the wonderful things he wants to do for Jesus on a given day. All these things are good and noble. He wants to dress right for Jesus, speak right for Jesus, do right for Jesus. He has a list of things that he believes are essential things to “do” for Jesus. The problem is… THIS IS A TOTALLY WRONG APPROACH. This person is still functioning according to SELF. He’s merely religious.

A GRACE filled Christian will wake up focused on being ONE with Jesus. Praying that Jesus live HIS life through them that day. Realizing that today, THEY are crucified with Christ. Embracing that THEY must decrease and JESUS must increase. Their mind, thoughts, and consciousness must be absorbed into the very person of Jesus, thus he lives as a son of God presently in his life. This is partaking in the divine nature. If JESUS is living THROUGH you… an overcoming and miraculous life is the natural result.

Oneness is more than a theology… it’s also the way we are to approach the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us… but Christ who lives within us. We are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. Jesus is the vine and we are but mere branches of Him. Without Him… we can do nothing. The overcoming life is the result of the Christlife flowing from Jesus THROUGH us.

So the question that’s often asked, “I’m a Christian can I do this….???” IS THE WRONG QUESTION. The question is… is that person one with Jesus??? What is JESUS leading them to do???

In sports, in order to be victorious we have to keep our eyes on the ball and be one with the ball. In the Christian faith we have to keep our focus on Jesus and be one with Jesus. Our aim should NEVER be a focus on DO’s and DON’Ts, good WORKS or bad WORKS. Our focus should be on partaking in Christ’s nature and being CONFORMED INTO HIS IMAGE. BE JESUS!

So, to answer your question. Works is living FOR Jesus. Obedience is DYING to self and allowing Jesus to live THROUGH us.

Sorry… this gets me fired up. Lol

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That is the MOST important question in Christianity, in my opinion.

You see… we are not told to live “for” Christ but rather “in” Christ. God doesn’t desire that we live according to rules that only modify behavior, but don’t change one’s nature. God desires that we be ONE with Jesus, and this is what Jesus taught. We are not supposed to live our lives trying to please Him. We are to DIE and cease all work and effort at salvation, seeking ONENESS with Jesus. The Christian life isn’t something we DO in service to the Lord. The Christian life is dying to self and our own works… and allowing JESUS Himself to live out the divine life THROUGH us.

For example, a legalist will wake up thinking of all the wonderful things he wants to do for Jesus on a given day. All these things are good and noble. He wants to dress right for Jesus, speak right for Jesus, do right for Jesus. He has a list of things that he believes are essential things to “do” for Jesus. The problem is… THIS IS A TOTALLY WRONG APPROACH. This person is still functioning according to SELF. He’s merely religious.

A GRACE filled Christian will wake up focused on being ONE with Jesus. Praying that Jesus live HIS life through them that day. Realizing that today, THEY are crucified with Christ. Embracing that THEY must decrease and JESUS must increase. Their mind, thoughts, and consciousness must be absorbed into the very person of Jesus, thus he lives as a son of God presently in his life. This is partaking in the divine nature. If JESUS is living THROUGH you… an overcoming and miraculous life is the natural result.

Oneness is more than a theology… it’s also the way we are to approach the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us… but Christ who lives within us. We are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. Jesus is the vine and we are but mere branches of Him. Without Him… we can do nothing. The overcoming life is the result of the Christlife flowing from Jesus THROUGH us.

So the question that’s often asked, “I’m a Christian can I do this….???” IS THE WRONG QUESTION. The question is… is that person one with Jesus??? What is JESUS leading them to do???

In sports, in order to be victorious we have to keep our eyes on the ball and be one with the ball. In the Christian faith we have to keep our focus on Jesus and be one with Jesus. Our aim should NEVER be a focus on DO’s and DON’Ts, good WORKS or bad WORKS. Our focus should be on partaking in Christ’s nature and being CONFORMED INTO HIS IMAGE. BE JESUS!

So, to answer your question. Works is living FOR Jesus. Obedience is DYING to self and allowing Jesus to live THROUGH us.

Sorry… this gets me fired up. Lol

Good points. I think its understanding free will and what walking after the Spirit really means in Romans 8. If we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I believe that to be true.

Can you elaborate on what you mean more by partaking of divine nature? I'm not so sure I am understanding you right.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Good points. I think its understanding free will and what walking after the Spirit really means in Romans 8. If we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I believe that to be true.

Amen. We simply DIE to self (good works and works of the flesh) and allow the Spirit (Jesus Christ) to live through us. Victory is IN Him. We don’t get victory doing FOR Him. As born again believers, we’re not issued a list of dos and don’ts. Our aspiration isn’t an ethical set of rules… but rather our aspiration is a person… Jesus Christ. Nothing will save us accept being conformed into the very image of Jesus. God doesn’t want to see a devout Apostolic or Baptist when He looks upon us… God wants to see JESUS. We are told that we must be PERFECT as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Yet in ourselves, even in all our rules, we can’t achieve perfection. Perfection can only come from that which is perfect. Thus, being perfect is dying from our own efforts of righteousness (self righteousness) and allowing JESUS (He who is perfection) live His perfect life through us. Again… be Jesus. Be so ONE with Jesus you feel HIS heart beating in your chest. Being so ONE with Jesus it’s HIS shadow that falls upon the ground as you walk. Being so ONE with Jesus when you speak people look at you with goosebumps because it is HIS words flowing from your lips. You loose your identity and find yourself absorbed by HIM to the point wherein you are only an extension of Jesus in this world. Yes, you’re still human… but it’s the life in union with HIM that is grace filled and overcoming.

Can you elaborate on what you mean more by partaking of divine nature? I'm not so sure I am understanding you right.

This is a BIG subject, and I’m not even sure I’ve grasped it all in its entirety yet. And you might have additional insight to add to it. But I’ll share what I’ve come to understand in my studies.

2 Peter 1:1-11
{1:1} Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus
Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus
Christ: {1:2} Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, {1:3}
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things
that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the
knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
{1:4} Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and
precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of
the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in
the world through lust. {1:5} And beside this, giving all
diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
{1:6} And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance
patience; and to patience godliness; {1:7} And to godliness
brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. {1:8}
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you
that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {1:9} But he that
lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and
hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. {1:10}
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your
calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall: {1:11} For so an entrance shall be ministered
unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our
Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

First, our righteousness isn’t through works, but it is the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Our grace and peace can be multiplied through knowing the fullness of God as manifest in us. Because it is by HIS divine power that he has given to us all things that pertain to living a godly life, through the very knowledge of Him who has called us to glorious and virtuous living. Because HE has given us exceedingly great promises; promises that allow us to partake in HIS divine nature living inside us, wherewith we have escaped the sinful corruptions of this world instigated by lust. You see, if all this be in us, we have knowledge of who we are in Him. This is our victory. The man that lacks in these things is blind, he cannot see afar off. He has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins by them being nailed to Christ’s cross. He doesn’t realize that living sinfully is AGAINST the very new nature of Christ imparted to Him. We are to make our calling and election sure in Christ Jesus. It’s all about tapping into the indwelling divine nature of Jesus.

Jesus is the vine… we are the branches. That divine nature that flows like nectar through the vine passes through the branches that they might bring forth fruit. The very Spirit of Jesus dwelling inside of us has imparted to us HIS nature. Most of us are living BELOW the nature imparted to us, living as men and brute beasts of religious burden, weighed down with standards and rules, suffocating the and hindering the very life Jesus desired to give us. When Jesus is living in us, and we are dead to self, His divine nature freely flows through our very being making us a conduit or extension of Himself. Jesus cannot fail. We fall and stumble and sin when we’ve hindered this union by picking self back up, living through the rotten carcass of the old man who was crucified with Christ. When we sin we feel guilty right? Why? If we were sinful human beings living with a sinful nature we’d be perfectly at home with sin. The FACT that we feel guilty demonstrates one thing… the old sin nature was crucified and is dead… we have the person of Jesus living in us imparting His divine nature to us. Our actions are contradicting our new nature… thus we feel guilt and shame. Guilt and shame from sin is EVIDENCE of a transformed nature. The way to ditch the guilt and shame is simple… confess to God and repent of picking up your old identity and reassume that oneness in Jesus Christ. By doing so we align ourselves with the divine nature imparted to us through the presence of the Holy Ghost. Then our actions are aligned with our nature and we feel PEACE.

I LOVE it when a saint sins and tells me they feel guilty and ashamed. It PROVES they have actually be changed!!! PRAISE GOD! Now they just have to accept their identity. It’s like they hit their head and forgot who they are and now they’re acting like someone who died and was buried a long time ago with Christ. If they realize the secret to identification… knowing who they are IN Jesus… they can just accept who they are and align themselves with the indwelling Jesus. It’s simple really.

Now… don’t just go out there and be the best Apostolic you can be. Because that isn’t good enough. Go out there and be one with Jesus to the point where He lives through you. Let HIM possess you. Be Jesus to this lost and dying world. Then you’ll have discovered REAL holiness.