Ministerial Ethics, a different perspective

ChicagoPastor · #1 12-22-2007, 12:15 AM

I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.

Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.

He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.

He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him

ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.

deacon blues · #2 12-22-2007, 01:21 AM

Good thread

ChicagoPastor · #3 12-22-2007, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Good thread

it's kinda slow, but I thought it was a good topic....

no scandals, no conspiracies...

BoredOutOfMyMind · #4 12-22-2007, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

it's kinda slow, but I thought it was a good topic....

no scandals, no conspiracies...

Plenty of folk simply dashing through the malls.....

bump it next month if it does not get airplay.

Evang.Benincasa · #5 12-22-2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.

Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.

He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.

He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him

ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.

Interesting thread would like to see what some would say about this.

Carpenter · #6 12-22-2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.

Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.

He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.

He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him

ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.

If you were to take an census in any metropolitan area, you would find that most OPs in that city by and large congregate at one church regardless of how many like churches they pass along the way.

This is unfortunate for several different reasons, the largest of which is that the church is NOT making nor is it focused on making a difference in their own community. How on earth can you invite someone to church then tell them they have to drive 30-45 minutes to church three or more times per week? Personally, I wouldn't do that.

Unfortunately it all goes back to the structure and the lack of unity in the/any organization. Sad.

Pastor Keith · #7 12-22-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

I had an interesting conversation with the President of the UPC of El Salvador today. He said that recently he was invited to a Pastor's seminar/retreat in the U.S. The asked him to teach on ministerial ethics. The host specificly asked him to focus on Pastor's that steal other Pastor's 'sheep' or let members from one church join their church without letters or phone calls from the previous Pastor.

Well, he said that as he was preparing for the session, he realized that EVERY TIME that he has been in the U.S. and they ask him to teach on ministerial ethics, they ALWAYS want him to talk about 'sheep stealing' or topics very closely related to sheep stealing.

He decided to go a new route this time. Rather than teach on "not stealing sheep" he taught on "How to keep your sheep from wandering"!!! He said that if Pastors would do a better job of Pastoring their sheep there wouldn't be so many wandering sheep. He said that one of the United State's biggest problems in ministry is the competitive and jealous spirit that is in a lot of the Pastors. Rather than be happy because a neighboring church is growing, a Pastor will discredit the growth or look for something wrong with the neighboring church.

He said that had John the Baptist been a typical U.S. Pastor, John would've been upset that Jesus left and started his own ministry after John baptized Him

ANYHOW I think it's a good thought and something we need to focus on. Sometimes we get too concerned or focused on the troublemakers in our sections or districts and we don't see what we could be doing better.

Sometimes Pastors only pastor people for a season, sometimes they only Pastor a church for a season, people belong to the Lord, if they come to my church fine, if they go somewhere else, fine, they belong to the Lord.

Sure I get me feelings hurt (I am human), you bring up John the Baptist, short time Pastor/Prophet, short on this earth, but long on influence.

Pastor Keith · #8 12-22-2007, 08:14 PM

Taken from Neil Cole, I think fits in somewhat to this discussion.

Theology of Death

Why are we so desperate to keep churches alive? While I know that the church is special to Jesus (His bride!) I think we have lost touch with something very spiritual…death. Can it be that death is as spiritually right as life? Well consider this, without death you cannot have a resurrection, the Gospel, salvation…life. Perhaps it is time that we embrace a theology of death.

The thinking behind this has caused us to commit the worst treason possible against heaven�&emdash;self-preservation. Why is self-preservation so bad, aren’t there worse things a church can do? Self-preservation is nothing short of blasphemy, it is taking into our own hands the function of Deity. It is playing God, plain and simple. That is the problem. As a consequence, literally tens of thousands of Christians and churches are deceived into a “churchianity” that is carried out by men, for men, under the name of God. I wonder if God likes getting the credit for all of the ........ we do.

While we clearly avoid a theology of death, the opposite is not a theology of life, for life is not what you will find in churches that strive to avoid death at all costs. I don’t know how it happened, but sometime in history we bought into a theology of safe. We think that we should do what is safe, for ourselves, for our families and for our churches. In fact, we are convinced that anything that is unsafe must be outside of God’s will and is thoroughly un-American. A theology of safe is put in place as a defensive measure to avoid death. This leads us right down the path of self-preservation.

Jesus is not about safe. He is the one who said things like… “I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.” “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “He who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” “Let the dead bury the dead�&emdash;you follow me.” These are not safe and wholesome words, they are words that shake us up and toss us out way past what is safe.

I have come up with two acronyms to expose some of our delusion regarding these things. The first reveals our inadequate theology of SAFE. The other is how Jesus wants us to embrace a theology of DEATH.

Safe is…

Self-preservation = our mission
Avoidance of the world and risk = wisdom
Financial security = responsible faith
Education = maturity

This is what a theology of death looks like…

Die daily to who we are
Empowerment of others (not self) is our life
Acceptance of risk is normative
Theology is not just knowledge, but practice
Hold tight to Christ with an open hand for everything else.

Jesus said, “He who clings to his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” We need to embrace a theology of death, our lives depend upon it!

ChicagoPastor · #9 01-02-2008, 07:51 AM

RevBuddy · #10 01-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Sheep and Shepherds is always an interesting topic...

...the primary responsibilities of a shepherd are protection and provision...

...the primary responsibility of a sheep is to follow...

Unfortunately, flocks always encounter other flocks, and sheep are quite capable of STRAYING quickly...

While I've heard many stories about "bell cows," I've never heard one story about a "bell ewe." Sheep are not like cattle. They don't behave in a similar fashion. If sheep are not following, then they are not fulfilling their responsibility, and they are straying...

Shepheards also need to understand that there are other shepherds in the field...they are not alone and they are not "the last shepherd before doomsday." Other shepherds are called to shepherding and the sheep need all of them, just a differing time...