Before I left the UPC, I was rising in the ranks primarily because I had an influential pastor and could preach "fearful" obedience and standards messages!
The UPC, IMO, is an "incestuous" organization. What I mean by that is that it primarily multiplies from within and not without.
DISCLAIMER: This opinion is the opinion of MOW alone and does not reflect the opinions of the AFF staff, their families or friends and relatives.
What do you think?
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"Some may call me foolish, some may call me odd; but I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man than a fool in the eyes of God..."
I can agree. The UPCI seems only to grow by family, not by conversion.
That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.
You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.
You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief
Indeed!
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.
You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief
Of course that is true - so much so that I have been critical of it!
I, of course don't critisize the conversions - just those who think having families is rightfully forfeited for church family.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I can't speak for all UPC churches because I don't know enough about any of them to say. But I can speak for the one UPC church that I grew up in in the beginning of my walk.
Back when I first started going there, we were adding people to the church all the time. Outsiders. People who had never even heard of Pentecost and were thrilled to be a part of this "new thing".
Then our pastor left to go to the mission field. (Please do not think I am saying he was wrong to go!!!! Absolutely NOT!! He was following God's call for his life!). After he left, this church had a pastor who would easily fit into the "abuser" category that I hear talked about on here, unfortunately. He was only there for a year but during that time the vast majority of the people left.
Since that time, this church has not added one single soul who came in from the world. They've had a few people come from other UPC churches. And most of those people eventually ended up going back to the the UPC churches they had started at.
Right now this church is running about 30-40 people on a good Sunday.
So what do I think? hmmmm. I think there might be some merit to what MOW has said. I'm not sure if it applies to EVERY UPC church, but it surely does to some.
On the other hand, I know churches from other denominations that are in the same condition. So it's not exclusively UPC.
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Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of a battle ! ! ! !
I can't speak for all UPC churches because I don't know enough about any of them to say. But I can speak for the one UPC church that I grew up in in the beginning of my walk.
Back when I first started going there, we were adding people to the church all the time. Outsiders. People who had never even heard of Pentecost and were thrilled to be a part of this "new thing".
Then our pastor left to go to the mission field. (Please do not think I am saying he was wrong to go!!!! Absolutely NOT!! He was following God's call for his life!). After he left, this church had a pastor who would easily fit into the "abuser" category that I hear talked about on here, unfortunately. He was only there for a year but during that time the vast majority of the people left.
Since that time, this church has not added one single soul who came in from the world. They've had a few people come from other UPC churches. And most of those people eventually ended up going back to the the UPC churches they had started at.
Right now this church is running about 30-40 people on a good Sunday.
So what do I think? hmmmm. I think there might be some merit to what MOW has said. I'm not sure if it applies to EVERY UPC church, but it surely does to some.
On the other hand, I know churches from other denominations that are in the same condition. So it's not exclusively UPC.
I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches. Some churches actively pursue the lost and people come from all backgrounds, get saved, and become part of the church. Other churches become ingrown. Any officers are members of the pastor's family and are therefore not independent thinkers but just "yes-men." The Church is run like a family business or family cash cow and office of pastor is passed on down from father to son or perhaps to son-in-law. "Sinners" are not welcome but are browbeaten and shunned. Any "new" folks come from other Oneness churches or perhaps people from other denominations who "see the light."
I don't know about the organization as a whole or individual districts. I would imagine some districts are "good old boys" networks and any promotion to office would be based on nepotism and politics. I sure can't say this is the way the whole organization or all the districts are. My knowledge is very limited when it comes to religious politics.
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Last edited by Sam; 05-17-2008 at 09:05 PM.
Reason: correct typs
I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches. Some churches actively pursue the lost and people come from all backgrounds, get saved, and become part of the church. Other churches become ingrown. Any officers are members of the pastor's family and are therefore not independent thinkers but just "yes-men." The Church is run like a family business or family cash cow and office of pastor is passed on down from father to son or perhaps to son-in-law. "Sinners" are not welcome but are browbeaten and shunned. Any "new" folks come from other Oneness churches or perhaps people from other denominations who "see the light."
I don't know about the organization as a whole or individual districts. I would imagine some districts are "good old boys" networks and any promotion to office would be based on nepotism and politics. I sure can't say this is the way the whole organization or all the districts are. My knowledge is very limited when it comes to religious politics.
I wholeheartedly agree, Sam. I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches within the UPC either. That was my point exactly. I'm sure that there are churches that really are self-contained and self-consumed. I'm not sure I like the term "incestuous". Don't know why, but it really makes me uncomfortable to use that term. But I do know that there are churches (like the one I came from) where they are very happy just being "us four and no more".
But again, I want to say this loud and clear - this is NOT only happening in the UPC. I know of many, many other churches from many, many other denominations that are in the same boat.
Frankly, sometimes I think that one reason the so-called "seeker friendly" churches grow like they do is because they started from the ground up. So there's no little clique already there to say to people, "if you don't measure up to our standards, you won't really want to stay here". No, I know that's not actually said out loud. But people feel it, believe me. I know that I feel it every time I visit my old church today.
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Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of a battle ! ! ! !
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