Something I thought I would never see............

[Margies3]

On Facebook, I am "friends" with a large UPC church in our area.. I was just reading what different people had posted this evening and almost fell off of my chair when I saw that this was what they said...

‎"I think we've made this relationship with God not about a relationship, but about meeting requirements."

I TOTALLY agree! And am thrilled beyond measure to see them say it. But this is not something I would have expected to see even 2 or 3 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I love this church and think the world of the the pastor.

Maybe I was stunned because I talked with someone else today who goes to a UPC church where the pastor recently said from the pulpit that they are not holding a hard line on standards anymore. (don't ask me who or where, because I will not say). Again, I am not upset about that. Just very, very surprised! Things have changed alot in the last 20 years, haven't they! (for the better, if you ask me )

[aegsm76]

Ummm, glad to see they've finally figured this out.
I attend what you would call a UC church and this is what has been preached from the day I arrived here.
As a matter of fact, that's what been preached in the last three churches I have attended over a 15 year span.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Margies3

On Facebook, I am "friends" with a large UPC church in our area.. I was just reading what different people had posted this evening and almost fell off of my chair when I saw that this was what they said...

‎"I think we've made this relationship with God not about a relationship, but about meeting requirements."

I TOTALLY agree! And am thrilled beyond measure to see them say it. But this is not something I would have expected to see even 2 or 3 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I love this church and think the world of the the pastor.

Maybe I was stunned because I talked with someone else today who goes to a UPC church where the pastor recently said from the pulpit that they are not holding a hard line on standards anymore. (don't ask me who or where, because I will not say). Again, I am not upset about that. Just very, very surprised! Things have changed alot in the last 20 years, haven't they! (for the better, if you ask me )

Wow, that is rather surprising! Usually you keep those thoughts to yourself. Perhaps being FB people feel less inhibited to keep their thoughts to themselves and feel they can be more honest.

it's rather a perceptive remark.

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Margies3

On Facebook, I am "friends" with a large UPC church in our area.. I was just reading what different people had posted this evening and almost fell off of my chair when I saw that this was what they said...

‎"I think we've made this relationship with God not about a relationship, but about meeting requirements."

I TOTALLY agree! And am thrilled beyond measure to see them say it. But this is not something I would have expected to see even 2 or 3 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I love this church and think the world of the the pastor.

Maybe I was stunned because I talked with someone else today who goes to a UPC church where the pastor recently said from the pulpit that they are not holding a hard line on standards anymore. (don't ask me who or where, because I will not say). Again, I am not upset about that. Just very, very surprised! Things have changed alot in the last 20 years, haven't they! (for the better, if you ask me )

Sadly, many are moving in this direction right now. The scripture tells us that in the last days many shall depart from the faith. We're seeing it happen.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

Sadly, many are moving in this direction right now. The scripture tells us that in the last days many shall depart from the faith. We're seeing it happen.

Where?

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

Sadly, many are moving in this direction right now. The scripture tells us that in the last days many shall depart from the faith. We're seeing it happen.

Sadly? Its sad when people begin to emphasize a relationship with God rather than trying to meet requirements? It was the Pharisees that demanded requirements to be met , rules to be followed. It was Jesus that encouraged His disciples to enter and maintain a relationship with God. Without having a relationship with God, the keeping of requirements is null and void.

Nicodemus was a teacher, a ruler among the Jews. Yet, he had no clue as to what it meant to be born again. He kept all the right rules, submitted to the right standards, yet he could not grasp the concept of having a personal relationship with the Lord. Now, THAT is sad. And whats even more sad is the fact that in all churches, including many Oneness churches, there is gross negligence on the part of the ministry to teach what is and what is not a true relationship with God. And the keeping of rules and standards is not necessarily the same as having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I wil agree...there are requirements. There are standards. The Bible tells us what is required of us. But, we can cast out devils, and not truly know Him. We can give all we have to the poor, and still have nothing. We can keep every law, and still fall short. Thats where grace is found... in the relationship we have with God. Unless we abide in Him- have a relationship with Him- the best rule keeping we can do will end in a puff of smoke.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Sadly? Its sad when people begin to emphasize a relationship with God rather than trying to meet requirements? It was the Pharisees that demanded requirements to be met , rules to be followed. It was Jesus that encouraged His disciples to enter and maintain a relationship with God. Without having a relationship with God, the keeping of requirements is null and void.

Nicodemus was a teacher, a ruler among the Jews. Yet, he had no clue as to what it meant to be born again. He kept all the right rules, submitted to the right standards, yet he could not grasp the concept of having a personal relationship with the Lord. Now, THAT is sad. And whats even more sad is the fact that in all churches, including many Oneness churches, there is gross negligence on the part of the ministry to teach what is and what is not a true relationship with God. And the keeping of rules and standards is not necessarily the same as having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I wil agree...there are requirements. There are standards. The Bible tells us what is required of us. But, we can cast out devils, and not truly know Him. We can give all we have to the poor, and still have nothing. We can keep every law, and still fall short. Thats where grace is found... in the relationship we have with God. Unless we abide in Him- have a relationship with Him- the best rule keeping we can do will end in a puff of smoke.

When you are a conservative and you see soo many people leave the standards only to fall down that slippery slope and see them leave "truth" and "holiness" and sometimes even God... how else are you to describe that than as a great falling away?

I'll tell you what. You want to change a conservatives mind that it is not a great falling away then you are not going to do it by arguing that the falling away is good. You are going have to do it by showing that people who have "fallen away" still love and serve God.

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Sadly? Its sad when people begin to emphasize a relationship with God rather than trying to meet requirements? It was the Pharisees that demanded requirements to be met , rules to be followed. It was Jesus that encouraged His disciples to enter and maintain a relationship with God. Without having a relationship with God, the keeping of requirements is null and void.

Nicodemus was a teacher, a ruler among the Jews. Yet, he had no clue as to what it meant to be born again. He kept all the right rules, submitted to the right standards, yet he could not grasp the concept of having a personal relationship with the Lord. Now, THAT is sad. And whats even more sad is the fact that in all churches, including many Oneness churches, there is gross negligence on the part of the ministry to teach what is and what is not a true relationship with God. And the keeping of rules and standards is not necessarily the same as having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I wil agree...there are requirements. There are standards. The Bible tells us what is required of us. But, we can cast out devils, and not truly know Him. We can give all we have to the poor, and still have nothing. We can keep every law, and still fall short. Thats where grace is found... in the relationship we have with God. Unless we abide in Him- have a relationship with Him- the best rule keeping we can do will end in a puff of smoke.

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

For some reason it seems that you are saying that moving in the same direction should be rather linear in that we should both visibly be getting closer to the same. This is not so. There are an infinite number of paths and some of those paths will take us further away from agreement before they bring us into closer agreement. So at any moment in time we can be moving further apart but that moving further apart will in a broader sense be something that will eventually bring us closer together

Also I want to point out that the implications of your statement is that anyone who is not getting closer to what you are is not being led by the Spirit of God like you are... Surely you don't mean that!

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

Brother, I appreciate and respect your convictions. In fact, I believe it is important that, as we strengthen our relationship with God, that we look inwardly for things that might hinder us in our wak with God. Paul told the Galations that they had run well, but then asked about the things that were hindering their progress. Admittedly, as I look inwardly, I see things hindering my walk with God. I see areas where I need to improve, grow stronger, and walk more consistently in the ways of the Lord. I think there would be something wrong with our relationship with God, if we didn't find areas that need to be improved upon. I was reading this earlier: Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. When we look to the Lord, He will give us the Light to see where we need to move closer to Him. And, I know I have some moving up to do. God bless you!