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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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Old 05-08-2007, 07:41 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Only 12 spoke in tongues at Pentecost

“Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.” (Acts 2:13-15, KJV).


At this passage the same company of men are referred to separately, in three ways, within each of these three verses. At verse 13, they are referred to as ‘these men,’ then at verse 14, the same group of men are referred to as ‘Peter … with the eleven,’ and finally at verse 15, ‘these are not drunken,’ again refers to this same group of men. Now, whilst this might seem blindingly obvious to most people, I’ll point this out at the outset because some have attempted to argue that verse 14 bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever to verses 13 and 15, which they’ll claim refers to the 120 disciples, whilst the context at verse 14 shifts to the 12 apostles. So they’ll conclude that because every Christian, all 120 souls spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, therefore all Christians should also speak in tongues today.

Firstly, the total number of Christians before Pentecost numbered a minimum of 500 persons, please see 1st Corinthians 15:6, which expressly states that some 500 faithful persons saw the risen Christ on a mountainside. So if a total of only 120 spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, as many Pentecostals will claim, then their theology must imply two classes of Christians, right from the day of Pentecost.

Secondly, Acts 1:15 which mentions the 120 bears no relationship to Acts 2:13-15 being separated by both a period of several days as well as by linguistic breaks within the text itself. For instance, the text changes its context from the 120 and shifts to the 11 apostles at Acts 1:21-23, where the triple use of the pronoun ‘us,’ at verses 21-22 and ‘they proposed’ at verse 23, refers only to the 11 apostles who then drew lots to chose Matthias as Judas’ replacement. The 120 disciples didn’t draw lots, the 11 apostles did. So my point is that because only the 11 apostles drew lots, therefore the context from this passage until Acts 2:13-15 remains that of the 12 apostles, which is exactly what we read at Acts 1:26: ‘Matthias, and he was numbered with the 11 apostles.’ So the word ‘they’ at Acts 2:1, directly refers back to the previous verse (Acts 1:26), in which the context are 12 apostles and not the 120 of Acts 1:15.

Thirdly, those who spoke in tongues at Acts 2:4 were Galileans, whilst not all of the company of the 120, which numbered both men and women would have been Galilean. This is confirmed at Acts 2:7: ‘are not these who speak Galileans.’ Three times at Acts 2:14, 22 and 29 Peter addresses the crowd referring to them as men. The word which he uses for men (anar), numbered 435 in Strong’s concordance which only ever refers to the male sex, being used 215 times in the Greek New Testament, of which the King James version translates this word as man 156 times, husband 50 times and sir 6 times. The events of the day of Pentecost took place at the Jerusalem temple, where people were congregated, to worship God, where they were separated according to gender into different courtyards. This is yet another reason why ‘anar’ couldn’t have been used to refer to both men and also to women at Acts 2. So the use of ‘anar’ at Acts 2:5 implies a situation of males speaking in languages to other men.
Fourthly, The tongues of fire which rested upon the twelve apostles’ heads (Acts 2:3) represented the 12 Levitical offerings of seven lambs, a bull, two rams, in the burnt offering, as well as the two lambs of the peace offering which were sacrificed at the feast of weeks (Pentecost), exactly fifty days after the feast of Passover (Leviticus 23:16). This is why we read that these twelve named animals (or offerings) were to be burnt with fire: ‘even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD’ (Leviticus 23:18-19). So the tongues of fire which rested upon each of the twelve apostle’s heads at Acts 2:3, had a definite purpose, in that they echoed this Old Testament oblation by fire of twelve offerings, representing the twelve tribes of Israel to God, at the feast of weeks (Pentecost) which was fifty days after the Passover.

Fifthly, the references to ‘new wine’ at verse 13 and ‘not drunk’ at verse 15, refers to the same company of people. Peter explains who these people were in verse 14: ‘Peter standing up with the eleven,’ so the context is the 12 apostles! This context doesn’t change from the 120 in verse 13, back to the 12 at verse 14 and then back to the 120 again at verse 15! As those accused of drunkenness by the scoffers, were those same 12 men of Acts 2:13 who’d stood up to directly face their accusers. However, if 120 men and women (and not 12 men) had spoken in tongues, then Acts 2:14 would have read: ‘But Peter standing up with the hundred and nineteen.’

Sixthly, Acts 2:43 referring to the tongues as signs and wonders limits the use of this gift on that day specifically to just the 12 apostles: ‘many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.’ So this word Apostles implies 12 men and not 120 disciples.

Finally in summary, please take careful note that I’m most certainly NOT claiming that only 12 men ever spoke in tongues. That would be a ludicrous claim, for after the day of Pentecost many other people also spoke in tongues (languages) other than the twelve apostles. However, if I can prove that just 12 men spoke on the day of Pentecost, then I've consequently proven that the gift of tongues wasn't ever given to the entire Church and so it can’t be claimed to be a gift for the entire Church today. Tongues were instead originally given specifically to the 12 apostles, but after Pentecost, they could and they certainly did pass it, as well as many other miraculous gifts, onto other Christians, by the laying on of their (the apostles) hands, to signify their unique apostolic authority within the Church (Acts 8:17, 19:6). On other occasions, God used tongues to signify to the apostles that certain people who had just come to faith were genuinely saved. People such as the first gentile converts who evidenced tongues, but without any hands ever being laid upon them (Acts 10:46).

Now if I'm wrong, and tongues were indeed given to the entire Christian Church at Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, then Acts 2:43 would read: 'And many wonders and signs were done by the 3,500.' For if every Christian should have the gift, then the 500 converts before this day (1st Corinthians 15:6), together with the 3,000 converts (Acts 2:41), would have together both spoken in tongues and so Acts 2:43 confirming this would state that either ‘all Christians’ or ‘3,500 spoke in tongues.’ However by limiting the gift of tongues on that day to just 12 men: 'many wonders and signs were done by the APOSTLES,' Luke is stating that only 12 out of the 3,500 spoke in tongues on that particular day. So it was given to them alone, as God used this gift at Pentecost to confirm direct revelation, via the apostolic office, to unbelieving Jews.
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Old 05-08-2007, 01:54 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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BTW folks, Robert here has every one of these anti Oneness Pentecostal Polemics saved on a computer and he just reposts them from forum to forum. Only occasionally he makes minor changes to them.

He did this at NFCF too and was banned after he continued to spam us and yet would not answer questions himself, would deny you ever answered his questions, would consistantly twist your answers, would deny you believe what you say you believe so he can attack you on a different angle and would ignore you posts and counter threads while demanding you answer him.

You will find he is quite unreasonable most of the time
Oh and I have refuted this argument of his, if we can call it that. dozens of times. In fact I have refuted every one of hsi arguments. The only problem is unlike him I do no save my counter replies to his long long long verbose anti-oneness threads so it gets rediculous for him to post these long long posts and demand you respond to every point while he ignores yours
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Old 05-09-2007, 05:20 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
BTW folks, Robert here has every one of these anti Oneness Pentecostal Polemics saved on a computer and he just reposts them from forum to forum. Only occasionally he makes minor changes to them.

He did this at NFCF too and was banned after he continued to spam us and yet would not answer questions himself, would deny you ever answered his questions, would consistantly twist your answers, would deny you believe what you say you believe so he can attack you on a different angle and would ignore you posts and counter threads while demanding you answer him.

You will find he is quite unreasonable most of the time
Oh and I have refuted this argument of his, if we can call it that. dozens of times. In fact I have refuted every one of hsi arguments. The only problem is unlike him I do no save my counter replies to his long long long verbose anti-oneness threads so it gets rediculous for him to post these long long posts and demand you respond to every point while he ignores yours



Firstly, I only ever post my own posts and I never copy and paste other people's work. Secondly, I make frequent changes as I learn more, for instance the Psalm 2:7 post has just been revised today after a persons comments to me in this chat room. Thirdly, you do the same yourself, although i admit that about 2/3 of my posts are actually repostings. Fourthly, why don't you attempt to refute my arguments, why not prove my premis wrong rather than resort to attacks upon me personally. Fifthly, this post wasn't a copy and paste!!!
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Old 05-09-2007, 12:57 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
Firstly, I only ever post my own posts and I never copy and paste other people's work. Secondly, I make frequent changes as I learn more, for instance the Psalm 2:7 post has just been revised today after a persons comments to me in this chat room. Thirdly, you do the same yourself, although i admit that about 2/3 of my posts are actually repostings. Fourthly, why don't you attempt to refute my arguments, why not prove my premis wrong rather than resort to attacks upon me personally. Fifthly, this post wasn't a copy and paste!!!
Firstly, I never said you copied someone elses.
Secondly I said you save your posts that you posted on another board and then you copy and paste YOUR OWN LONG LONG LONG LONG post on many other boards. So while you demand someone that has never saw your post before to reply to your long long long posts, all YOU had to do was copy and paste it from forum to forum.
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Old 05-10-2007, 05:00 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Firstly, I never said you copied someone elses.
Secondly I said you save your posts that you posted on another board and then you copy and paste YOUR OWN LONG LONG LONG LONG post on many other boards. So while you demand someone that has never saw your post before to reply to your long long long posts, all YOU had to do was copy and paste it from forum to forum.



Well if that's wrong, why then do you also do exactly the same thing yourself as I do and occasionally post your own posts too? Most of my replies are my own work as in the case of the approximate 12-15 posts which I've posted today, but I admit that if I start a post then just over half are posts which I've thought about for years and stored on my pc.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:26 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
Well if that's wrong, why then do you also do exactly the same thing yourself as I do and occasionally post your own posts too? Most of my replies are my own work as in the case of the approximate 12-15 posts which I've posted today, but I admit that if I start a post then just over half are posts which I've thought about for years and stored on my pc.
I don't. I have one post saved that is a reply this topic you started here. And in reply to your doing it, I did it. Otherwise you won't see me going from board to board and just reposting stuff I have saved from posting years ago.

BTW you gonna reply or not?
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Old 05-09-2007, 08:02 AM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
BTW folks, Robert here has every one of these anti Oneness Pentecostal Polemics saved on a computer and he just reposts them from forum to forum. Only occasionally he makes minor changes to them.

He did this at NFCF too and was banned after he continued to spam us and yet would not answer questions himself, would deny you ever answered his questions, would consistantly twist your answers, would deny you believe what you say you believe so he can attack you on a different angle and would ignore you posts and counter threads while demanding you answer him.

You will find he is quite unreasonable most of the time
Oh and I have refuted this argument of his, if we can call it that. dozens of times. In fact I have refuted every one of hsi arguments. The only problem is unlike him I do no save my counter replies to his long long long verbose anti-oneness threads so it gets rediculous for him to post these long long posts and demand you respond to every point while he ignores yours
So are we allowing anti-apostolic rhetoric to be promoted here now?
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Old 05-09-2007, 09:33 AM
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So are we allowing anti-apostolic rhetoric to be promoted here now?
No one has reported any posts until now.
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Old 05-09-2007, 10:00 AM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind View Post
No one has reported any posts until now.
Not that you are accusing me, but I want to publicly state that I haven't reported any of his posts, but merely asked a question that I thought should have been asked by now.
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Old 05-09-2007, 10:03 AM
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Not that you are accusing me, but I want to publicly state that I haven't reported any of his posts, but merely asked a question that I thought should have been asked by now.
Wow, you are defensive today!

Is it the Full Moon?!?

I simply stated there have been no reported posts. I entered it to discussion among the Admin.
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