Sure is Boring Around Here!! so.....

[crakjak]

"The universalist perspective rests upon two theological assumptions for which we can find ample support in the NT: first, that God, being perfectly loving, wills or sincerely desires the redemption of all sinners, and second, that God, being almighty, has the power to achieve this end. If you accept both of these assumptions, then universalism follows as a deductive consequence. So if you reject universalism, then you must also reject at least one of these assumptions; that is you must either deny that God wills (or sincerely desires) the redemption of all sinners or deny that He has the power to achieve it. The Augustinians (Calvinists) deny the first assumption, and the Arminians (OP's) deny the second. But St. Paul, I have argued, endores both assumptions; and in some of his most systematic theological discourses, such as Romans 5 and 11 and I Corinthians 15, he explicitly endorses the idea of universal reconciliation as well." Quoted from, "The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott.

[pelathais]

Okay, I'll bite... Romans 9:22

God does not "will or sincerely desire the redemption of all sinners..." He has a "will" that desires to show "wrath" as well as love. He has a "desire" to destroy some vessels (human beings).

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Okay, I'll bite... Romans 9:22

God does not "will or sincerely desire the redemption of all sinners..." He has a "will" that desires to show "wrath" as well as love. He has a "desire" to destroy some vessels (human beings).

Very good attempt. However, if we read the context of Romans 9:22, we will readily deduct that Paul is saying that God endured the sinfulness of the Gentiles for one simple reason. That reason is that He had a plan, that through the Jewish nation He would reconcile the whole creation.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? NKJ

He endured centuries of sinfulness, so that He could complete His plan.

Your post puts you squarely in the Calvinists camp, which declares that God is a respecter of persons, and that God is hateful, in that He creates the vast majority of humanity to roast them in the pit for billions and billions of years. This position soils the character of God, our heavenly Father.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"The universalist perspective rests upon two theological assumptions for which we can find ample support in the NT: first, that God, being perfectly loving, wills or sincerely desires the redemption of all sinners, and second, that God, being almighty, has the power to achieve this end. If you accept both of these assumptions, then universalism follows as a deductive consequence. So if you reject universalism, then you must also reject at least one of these assumptions; that is you must either deny that God wills (or sincerely desires) the redemption of all sinners or deny that He has the power to achieve it. The Augustinians (Calvinists) deny the first assumption, and the Arminians (OP's) deny the second. But St. Paul, I have argued, endores both assumptions; and in some of his most systematic theological discourses, such as Romans 5 and 11 and I Corinthians 15, he explicitly endorses the idea of universal reconciliation as well." Quoted from, "The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott.

It kinda puts those "hell is hot, and full of churchgoers just like you" preachers out of business, huh?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

It kinda puts those "hell is hot, and full of churchgoers just like you" preachers out of business, huh?

Oh, that it would put them out of the "hellhole of endless torture" business, and convert them to what Paul calls the "ministry of reconciliation".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"The universalist perspective rests upon two theological assumptions for which we can find ample support in the NT: first, that God, being perfectly loving, wills or sincerely desires the redemption of all sinners, and second, that God, being almighty, has the power to achieve this end. If you accept both of these assumptions, then universalism follows as a deductive consequence. So if you reject universalism, then you must also reject at least one of these assumptions; that is you must either deny that God wills (or sincerely desires) the redemption of all sinners or deny that He has the power to achieve it. The Augustinians (Calvinists) deny the first assumption, and the Arminians (OP's) deny the second. But St. Paul, I have argued, endores both assumptions; and in some of his most systematic theological discourses, such as Romans 5 and 11 and I Corinthians 15, he explicitly endorses the idea of universal reconciliation as well." Quoted from, "The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott.

bump, its still booooorrrrrinnng around here.

[Nahum]

No it's not. Didn't you see the stats BOOM posted?

AFF is roaring.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

No it's not. Didn't you see the stats BOOM posted?

AFF is roaring.

Like a trickeling creek.....