Does Everyone Live Forever?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

I read your thesis on this parable. Interesting.

I wrote one a while back on this, the parables intrigue me.

The parable of the rich man and lazarus is not about hell so much as it is a judgment on the Jews and their religious system that was against the laws of God.

Dont want to hijack this thread on the annihilation of the wicked doctrine.

Exactly.

[Esaias]

From another thread:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Psalm 37

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. 2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. 3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. 4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. 5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. 6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. 14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. 15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. 16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. 17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. 18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The psalm speaks of the future of the wicked, that they will be no more, and will perish, and consume away. They will not be found. This takes place at the judgment, because even though wicked people die in this life, one can always find more wicked men still among the living. But a day is coming in which every deed of every person will be judged, and the wicked will be destroyed and "be no more".

Ecclesiastes showed that judgment must take place outside of the grave, and therefore there must be a resurrection. The resurrection thus is necessary for the judgment. The saints, in Christ, will be found in righteousness because they are in Him, who is Himself their righteousness. They will experience a resurrection into life. The wicked will also rise from the grave, and will be judged as well. But not being found in Christ, they will be judged for their wickedness, and will perish.

Thus, there is a resurrection to life, and a resurrection to damnation. The wicked will not live forever, but will be "consumed like fat" burning away into smoke. That is, they will be destroyed and there will simply be no more wicked.

Jesus affirmed this in that most famous verse, John 3:16, when He said the believers "should not perish, but have everlasting life." The unbelievers would "perish", that is, they would be consumed and would be no more.

He also affirmed the dual resurrection in John ch 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It should be noted that those who will participate in either the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation, are those who are in the graves. They themselves are said to be in the graves when this happens, not just those " whose bodies" are in the graves.

Isaiah also speaks of the fate of the wicked:

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; 16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. 17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

The prophet asks, "Who shall dwell with the devouring fire, and everlasting burnings?" Many people believe the wicked will dwell or live forever with the devouring fire and everlasting burnings in hell. But the Scripture says explicitly it is the righteous who shall dwell with the devouring fire and everlasting burnings! How can this be?

It is because the righteous shall live forever, whereas the wicked shall be consumed (burnt up) and will be no more. The devouring fire is the consuming fire, which is GOD HIMSELF:

Deuteronomy 4

24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Hebrews 12

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God Himself is the consuming fire who, in His judgment, destroys the wicked. The righteous, however, live forever with Him. This is illustrated in symbolic form in the Revelation:

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell (Hades, the grave) delivered up the dead who were then judged. This means people coming back to life, out of the grave, resurrection. Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire, which is the SECOND death. And those not in the Book of Life are likewise cast unto the lake of fire.

Death and Hades, the grave, are abolished and death is destroyed, to be no more. As are the wicked. It is called the "second death" because it is a death that occurs after judgment. The second death has no power over the saints (Rev 20:6), that is, the fire cannot harm them, they are not appointed to destruction. They have eternal life, and shall live forever with God. But the wicked do not have eternal life, they are utterly destroyed by the righteous and holy judgment of God.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From another thread:

Nails it!

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by TulsaDavid

Well, you can go around that mountain as many times as you like, but you won't change the definition of the lake of fire as the very final death meted to the lost. You also won't change that it is an ever-non-ceasing torture for the eons of eons. And Revelation is quite explicit about trying to change that. The devil will be tormented without end, the demons without end, the lost humanity without end, period. No exceptions. No getting around a definitive final death being an unceasing lake of fire.

TulsaDavid, have you given consideration to the recent posts made?

[Tithesmeister]

I’ve not checked this thread thoroughly yet and I haven’t established an opinion based on scripture, but has the final verse of Matthew 25 been analyzed?

[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I must say that there have been mighty convincing arguments made on both sides of the issue.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’ve not checked this thread thoroughly yet and I haven’t established an opinion based on scripture, but has the final verse of Matthew 25 been analyzed?

[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I must say that there have been mighty convincing arguments made on both sides of the issue.

The punishment of the wicked is EVERLASTING DEATH. The wicked are cast into the fire to bring this about.

If everlasting punishment means everlasting life in torment in what way did Jesus pay for our sins?

Obviously he is NOT suffering the torment of Hell throughout all eternity. Rather he paid for our sins by his DEATH on the cross.

Three days later HE AROSE!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The punishment of the wicked is EVERLASTING DEATH. The wicked are cast into the fire to bring this about.

If everlasting punishment means everlasting life in torment in what way did Jesus pay for our sins?

Obviously he is NOT suffering the torment of Hell throughout all eternity. Rather he paid for our sins by his DEATH on the cross.

Three days later HE AROSE!

The bold part is the cornerstone of the plan of salvation. But people who reject Jesus don’t have their sins remitted, otherwise they would be justified, or deemed righteous.

I’m also unconvinced about the everlasting punishment phrase. In Matthew 25:46 the punishment would be the subject or noun. Everlasting describes the punishment. It appears to me that the punishment would last forever, which doesn’t seem to be the case when someone is dead, either first or second death.

I appreciate your teaching, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, it just seems not to align with this passage.

[Michael The Disciple]

The bold part is the cornerstone of the plan of salvation. But people who reject Jesus don’t have their sins remitted, otherwise they would be justified, or deemed righteous.

My point is did Jesus pay the price for the sins of the world? If the unbelievers punishment was eternal torment in Hell how did Jesus pay the price? Three days in Abes Bosom, which to many is the same as "Paradise"?

Or his DEATH?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’ve not checked this thread thoroughly yet and I haven’t established an opinion based on scripture, but has the final verse of Matthew 25 been analyzed?

[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I must say that there have been mighty convincing arguments made on both sides of the issue.

The punishment is everlasting, that is, it is never rescinded, it is final, it is permanent, no appeal, no deferral, no parole, etc.

What is the punishment? Death.

So the everlasting punishment is death from which there is no appeal.

[shag]

28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


What exactly is the difference between body and soul in this first sentence?
In other words, if someone kills the body what exactly is it that is left, the Jesus calls the soul?