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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #11  
Old 01-23-2009, 10:55 AM
MomOfADramaQn MomOfADramaQn is offline
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Re: redefining hollness & foot washing

The preachers and their "titles" get on my nerves - but I guess that is another thread - when my pastor introduces himself to someone he uses his first and last name - sometimes just his first. People get too carried away with titles.
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  #12  
Old 01-24-2009, 08:46 PM
alanhosch alanhosch is offline
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Re: redefining hollness & foot washing

Titus was presumed to be the Bishop of Crete. He was given a bishop-like office by Paul, Titus 1:5. Timothy the same for Ephesus, 1 Timothy 1:3.

A bishopprick is an office that is similar our modern day description of pastor. A pastorate is a also an office. Ephesians 4:11 mentions pastors as one-fifth of the five-fold ministry (or 4-fold, however you view it).

Technically, an assistant pastor and many other leaders within the church are pastors. The senior pastor is actually a bishop. A presbyter or superintendent would also fill the role of bishop, whether over a city (Ephesus) or a region/island (Crete). Simply meaning that a bishop is a leader of pastors.

In my experience, some bishops are simply elected political leaders. A few will show the signs of an apostle (notice the lower case "a"), one of which is the ability to train, develop, and lead other ministers into callings and commissions of their own (based on Paul's ministerial example; i.e., everywhere he went (Acts 13+) aspiring ministry was drawn to him and found guidance from him).

But that is all off the subject. I have also noticed a change in the Church in the last 20 (appx.) years. I think it has to do with pastors who fear men rather than God. I think it also has to do with organizations (notice the plural) that harped on one small category of holiness for far too long, ignoring the need for cleansing of the spirit (human spirit), as well as the outward lifestyle. And thus, allowing those human spirits, clothed in holy attire, to run rampant withing their churches.

At any rate, as we near the coming of the Lord, we will see much more of this move away from actual Biblical teaching towards a much-favored universalism. This is inevitable and prophecied by Jesus and other men of God in Scripture. We shouldn't fear this, or allow it to cause bitterness. These people and their pastors still know the Word hasn't changed. They are just acting out of one of several factors.

One of these factors, and the main cause of most universalist-type church movements throughout history, is ignorance to the Word. The Bible is a self-interpreting book. Neither needing "private interpretation" nor apology for its teachings. If you don't really know the Word, you'll be likely to stumble over it.

Another factor, I think, is bitterness towards the ministry. I know my organization, has created many enemies with its past policies and politics. Many ministers have left our ranks because of political misunderstandings and now fail to preach the whole truth of the Word (don't misunderstand me as saying that all who leave an organization are not preaching the Word, I fellowship with a large variety of Apostolics). So, in essence, their failure to now teach the fullness of the truth is out of a seeming desire to get back at who hurt them.

In the midst of this move away from righteousness teaching, a remnant will begin to shine brighter and increasingly inspire persecution from the mainstream accepted universalist movement. A universalist movement which neither teaches holiness as prescribed and commanded by God's Word, nor the need for teachings on man's sinful nature (for proof of this, just listen to any, and I mean any, of JO's sermons at Lakewood.cc; he and his ministry are a NEW mainstream for evangelicals).

People who stand on principle are destined to be in the minority. That is not a mark of self-righteousness, however. And we must do all we can to keep reaching our world with the full truth of the Word.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2009, 09:27 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: redefining hollness & foot washing

Thanks for some good word Alan. The narrow way cannot - by definition, be broadly accepted by those who believe not or have departed the faith. The salt brings it's best savor in this hour.

A universalist movement... I have mixed feelings Oneness Pentecostals could stand a bit of universalism when it comes to their relationship with other Christians - especially other Evangelicals.

In the broader sense though, yes I agree, we need to clearly preach Jesus as the ONLY answer to sin, because truly there is no other.


PS regarding assistant pastors AKA plural eldership - have you checked out Dave Houston's site?
http://www.gloriouschurch.com/
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Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:40 PM
alanhosch alanhosch is offline
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Re: redefining hollness & foot washing

Will check it out.
I agree re: the relationship with other Christians. Perhaps we could all stand to view non-Apostolics as those who need to be shown the way of God "more perfectly". And as those that can teach us a thing or two, as well. I attended a fundamental Baptist school in my teens and I must say they are a devout people. They just need the fulness of the truth.
(see, I am capable of short posts)
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2009, 03:15 PM
edjen01 edjen01 is offline
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Re: redefining hollness & foot washing

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Originally Posted by areyourucky View Post
seems like things keep getting redefined. I the 1980s we left a church because holyness went out the window,, then 8 years later the same thing happened to our new church.Is there any more holyness churches left, and proud they are. Seems holyness can be preached well in smaller churches,but once membership gets over 200, then things change. they say it is not about numbers, and i know no one wants people to leave. But the bible says many are called, but few are chossen. Why have many members, but no one is commited. I noticed that hardly any churches any more have alters, and no one does foot washing any more, espeically in large churches. The larger the church, the better chance of no alters and no foot washing. If there are no more alters. I noticed many churches get rid of the alters, now to make room for large , high and lifted up platforms to seat men of honour, and great preforming praise singers.
redefining is something that MUST be done every generation for a religious movement to continue.

I believe there are lots of holiness churches around. Pride goes before destruction....and so does the church or church lead who takes "pride" in their holiness. It could be said that to have pride is to not be holy.

Many are called, but few are choosen??? This has nothing at all to do with holiness.

Altars are a traditon from men...unless you mean an actual Bar-B-Q pit where animals are burnt.

Regarding footwashing...I believe the point Jesus was making had to do with service and humility. While I see nothing wrong with the tradition....I think teaching & practicing service with humility will see a better result.

Lastly....regarding large churches....what makes a church large? short answer...lots of people. People matter to God. So I do not see any reason why He would want us to have small churches...or churches with very few people.
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