Does Hell make sense? - Page 16

mfblume · #**151** 05-20-2011, 12:25 PM

For those who think God cannot "WIN" if most are lost and never are recovered, I gave this statement in 2008 on this forum: "a victor is not determined by who has the most adherents. If good overcomes and destroys evil, then a small number of the good in contrast shows even moreso the greater power of good!"

Praxeas · #**152** 05-20-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

How can you say this, when Jesus Himself said He spoke in parables least they should understand? He obviously has a purpose in many things being hidden from view. The Bible is not perfectly clear on a very many things.

A parable is not a hidden meaning. Rather a Parable is a story that TEACHES a certain truth. Some Parables were just harder to understand than others. Those that hungered for spiritual truth were more readily able to understand them

Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Praxeas · #**153** 05-20-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

For those who think God cannot "WIN" if most are lost and never are recovered, I gave this statement in 2008 on this forum: "a victor is not determined by who has the most adherents. If good overcomes and destroys evil, then a small number of the good in contrast shows even moreso the greater power of good!"

It also assumes that this whole thing is a game, a war between God and Satan. That gives way way too much power to Satan and puts him on equal footing with God.

In fact Satan only exists because God allows him to exist. If God is powerful enough to "cleanse" and save the Devil and his angels (which UR must logically include in salvation), then God could have done it a long long long time ago and saved this world a lot of pain and kept Adam and Eve from falling.

It's not a game. It's a test. God is weeding out the goats from the sheep. He is dividing the tares from the wheat.

mfblume · #**154** 05-20-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It also assumes that this whole thing is a game, a war between God and Satan. That gives way way too much power to Satan and puts him on equal footing with God.

In fact Satan only exists because God allows him to exist. If God is powerful enough to "cleanse" and save the Devil and his angels (which UR must logically include in salvation), then God could have done it a long long long time ago and saved this world a lot of pain and kept Adam and Eve from falling.

It's not a game. It's a test. God is weeding out the goats from the sheep. He is dividing the tares from the wheat.

Right. A game implies God and Satan are equal opponents. One is just as great in magnitude as the other, only in opposite realms of goodness versus evil. It assumes good and evil are equally as strong as the other, and we wonder who "wins" in such cases. That is the false doctrine of dualism, where there can be no good unless there is evil.

Satan is not God's evil counterpart. If anything, Michael would be opposite to satan, not God being opposite to satan.

crakjak · #**155** 05-21-2011, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

A parable is not a hidden meaning. Rather a Parable is a story that TEACHES a certain truth. Some Parables were just harder to understand than others. Those that hungered for spiritual truth were more readily able to understand them

Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

I totally agree with your post, except the first sentence. The meaning to Jesus parables were hidden to the very people that we think needed to see the truth in them the most. The disciples were already believers, why did Jesus not speak in a matter that would have opened the eyes of the the unbelievers? The scripture say that He blinded them intentionally, so that the Gentiles could be brought in.

God does all of His purpose in His good time, otherwise He could convert the world in a nano second.

Praxeas · #**156** 05-21-2011, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

I totally agree with your post, except the first sentence. The meaning to Jesus parables were hidden to the very people that we think needed to see the truth in them the most. The disciples were already believers, why did Jesus not speak in a matter that would have opened the eyes of the the unbelievers? The scripture say that He blinded them intentionally, so that the Gentiles could be brought in.

God does all of His purpose in His good time, otherwise He could convert the world in a nano second.

It wasn't hidden because it was a parable. It was hidden because they were blind. The reason they could not understand the parable was their own blindness. He could have spoke more directly but he didn't

Praxeas · #**157** 05-21-2011, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right. A game implies God and Satan are equal opponents. One is just as great in magnitude as the other, only in opposite realms of goodness versus evil. It assumes good and evil are equally as strong as the other, and we wonder who "wins" in such cases. That is the false doctrine of dualism, where there can be no good unless there is evil.

Satan is not God's evil counterpart. If anything, Michael would be opposite to satan, not God being opposite to satan.

And that is how the UR apologist sets up their argument. It's in the form of a logical fallacy. It assumes you agree with them. And they base their beliefs not on facts but on an appeal to people's feelings

goosonano · #**158** 05-21-2011, 07:00 AM

What doesn't make sense is why anyone would want to go there. Where would you put Satan and his followers? I can't think of a better place.

maisojiya · #**159** 05-21-2011, 07:26 AM

Just wondered why an Eternal Hell of pain and torture made sense, seems like cosmic overkill.

crakjak · #**160** 05-21-2011, 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=Praxeas;1067942]It wasn't hidden because it was a parable. It was hidden because they were blind. The reason they could not understand the parable was their own blindness. He could have spoke more directly but he didn't[/QUOTE]

My whole point, the all knowing God did not speak in a way that they could understand, and He did that on purpose, His purpose. So, you can turn it anyway you choose, end result is the same. He purposely was not saving all at that time, even though He could have, had it fit His overall purpose.

Likewise, He has a purpose in not converting the whole world at this moment, but that will change. For He is the Savior of the whole world.