Are we really New Testament Church???

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Correction:
We DO have the power! Unfortunately, we also have an identity crisis. Since we don't really understand who we are, we also end up not using the power and authority we've been given.



Acts 1.8 - Jesus speaking...
"But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."

Without miracles of healing the Christian Church never would have made the first imprint of our risen Savior on the world.
We can have our churches, preach sermons, do religious things, but without manifesting the true nature of Christ by preaching and teaching His Word, healing the sick, winning the lost, and doing miracles in Jesus' name we barely make an imprint at all on our world.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

But if we are apostles none of us have the power to perform marculous (sp) signs and wonders

It's not about "power". It's about "calling" and "faith". That's what Simon Magnus couldn't understand.

Miracles are not the product of power. They are the product of a combination of "calling" and "faith". Some have the "faith" but not the "calling" to perform a miracle. Others have the "calling" but don't have the "faith". I have a wonderful book on every miracle on the Bible. It charts how the outbreak of miracles comes as a result of a move of God. For example, you see many miracles in the Exodus as God was delivering his people...but then miracles seem to become fewer and fewer as Israel's history progresses. Sure, there were small instances of miracles...but by and large these were exceptional instances, most didn't see or receive a miracle. There was miraculous providence throughout this historical period but few real "miracles". Then you have an extraordinary outbreak of miracles around the time of the prophets Elijah and Elisha as they issued the "Word of the Lord" to the people. TThen after Elijah and Elisha other prophets spoke and there were miracles but miracles were fewer. Then there was a famine from hearing the prophetic utterance altogether. A 400 year famine. Then came John the Baptist preparing the people for their Messiah. Then Jesus unleashed the power of the Gospel on the scene. After Christ's death the Spirit moved mightily in the Church, as she preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then, just as with Israel, history marched on, the church institutionalized, apostatized, and miracles become fewer and outbreaks were sporadic in distant pockets among the nations. Then various men of God spoke and often miracles were reported in their wake. Then we see a mighty outbreak once more as the Pentecostal experience brought forth the restoration of the Apostolic Church and the Apostolic Gospel that was preached by the Apostles. But again, as with Israel, we've seen fewer miracles as we've become institutionalized and taken the message for granted.

Here's the deal...miracles don't happen at will. They don't happen for our benefit. They are not a promise and they are very infrequent historically speaking. No one has the "power to work a miracle". Miracles serve one purpose and one purpose ALONE...miracles glorify God and validate a message. It might be a message from a prophet, it might be the message of Christ himself, the message of the Church that Christ is risen, the message of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, the message of Oneness, the message of Acts 2:38. This is why miracles are seen more in "revivals" than daily church activities and functions. Because if a man is a REAL man of God he has a REAL message and the Spirit validates that message with miracles and miraculous happenings. It's about glorifying God and validating the message. When miracles taper off....the message is lacking, neglected, or taken for granted. This is why more miracles are seen in the mission field where the full Apostolic Gospel is being preached for the first time. So first, one needs the "calling" to deliver a REAL and TIMELY message to set the stage of a miracle.

Second, there must be faith. If the preacher's faith is lacking, he could have a message...but not the faith to let it be validated by the demonstration of miraculous power. Sometimes the preacher as faith...but the people don't. In those instances you will see few miracles.

So miracles are something I believe we misunderstand. They serve a purpose during a specific moment when the Spirit moves on a man to do or say a certain thing. They are not "powers" to be used at will like those found in super hero comic books. Sadly this misconception cuts both ways. It causes skeptics to wonder wear the "power" is....and it frustrates true saints who think these things are "powers" to be used at will. The key is understanding that a miracle serves a purpose and it's all about validating the message to the Glory of God. The questions I ask are...is this the right time for a miracle? Is there a message to validate? Is their faith in the preacher and the people to receive the miracle? Those are key.

Just my opinion. It's very complex and there are different elements to this, but the above is a very general expression of my understanding. Hope that helps out some. God bless.

[KWSS1976]

I really think we fall under the disciples of christ rather than apostles because not all disciples were apostles and there was only 12 apostles..

[Dordrecht]

Miracles are still happening today.
Read some of Sister Janice Alvear's Articles on her website.

[A.W. Bowman]

Thank you jaamez - Well stated.

Jim (Sam) has noted on one of his threads here that there is a vast difference between receiving the Holy Ghost and walking in the power of that Spirit. (See Galatians 5:25 and John 20:21-24)

In this day and age of super ministers grabbing the spotlight and siting on thrones elevated on stages for all to marvel at, the true ministers are often those who do not seek the approval of men. We do not see healing such as performed at the Gate Beautiful of the Temple simply because very few believers are willing to risk the possibility of nothing happing! "What if nothing happens? I'll look like a fool!"

There are two sins at play here. The first is unbelief and the second one is pride.

Even today there are people (believers and non-believers alike) being raised from the dead, cancers being healed and limbs bing straightened. However, most of these events take place in "third-world" countries, not in our rational, pragmatic, and unbelieving Christian communities in the western world. We have preachers, teachers, and other such ministers who fail to minister to the body of Christ, rather many desire to be ministered unto. When such leaders require that all manifestations of the Spirit be approved and controlled by them - the Spirit is quenched, the gathered body is dead and must wait upon the "approved demonstration" of God's Spirit by the authorized few. What we witness in a stunted body, immature and dysfunctional.

What we are left with are those who seek only after signs and wonders (even in the Last Church of the Holy Feel Good) and those who have to have everything figured out, using all of their acquired rational abilities and talents in the insane attempt to understand and define God according to what it is we want Him to be (become a member of The Latter-day School of Christian Religious Philosophy and Cook Book of the Month Club).

We have outlived the days where "feeling the Holy Ghost" is the purpose of a service - that will no longer sustain us. Nor will trying to "get everything religiously right" (the correct reciting of religious mantras and incantations, performing impotent rituals and the like). It is time to combine (to add to) our living in the Spirit with our walk in the Spirit. It is time for all of us to grow up in the Spirit and mature in our spiritual essence.

For too long we have survived on platitudes instead of substance. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why the Church of Jesus Christ is not under a notable attack here in the west (at least not yet), like it is in the rest of the world. We have not been tested - yet - our time is at hand. Looking for a great world-wide revival? Also look rather for the great falling away when the times of trials and testing come fully upon us.

Let us grow up. Let take responsibility for our own salvation - work out what needs to be worked out - even with fear and trembling. Being a disciple of any spiritual leader (preacher, teacher, minister, etc.) will not take the place of being a true disciple of Jesus Christ. We all need to get that stright in our minds and hearts.

[A.W. Bowman]

To the question: Are we a N.T. church? Only those saints that do what the N.T. church did, believed and acted on the same principles and worked in the same Spirit and followed the same "laws of God" that the initial church did, will be worthy of being called "Apostolic". Honestly? We just like the name, we really don't want to be bothered with the doing.

[Dordrecht]

I believe that miracles are happening today just as they were happening 2000 years ago.

Some might say :"Well, that's your point of view, but this is mine".

The thing with a miracle is, that it brings people to a decision.
In fact it settles the issue one way or the other.

A miracle also reveals to people their relationship to God.
A miracle also creates new hope.

I believe we still have access to the miraculous power of the Name of Jesus.
We also have access to His Word, which brings changes in our lives.

There's nothing new under the sun. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
His word says so and nothing can change that.

[Dordrecht]

http://www.nfb.ca/film/the_hutterites/?ac=g+hutterites

Canadian Hutterite documentary.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok I guess another beautiful and unique thing in the real New Testament Church was just for that time. You know like baptism in Jesus name. Like the gift of the Holy Ghost. Like healing and miracles. Like the head covering.

According to Apostolic Preterists even the coming of Christ has passed away.

So what is the modern day Apostolic Church have to offer pray tell?

Nice to have all the doctrinal questions figured out anyway.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I guess another beautiful and unique thing in the real New Testament Church was just for that time. You know like baptism in Jesus name. Like the gift of the Holy Ghost. Like healing and miracles. Like the head covering.

According to Apostolic Preterists even the coming of Christ has passed away.

So what is the modern day Apostolic Church have to offer pray tell?

Nice to have all the doctrinal questions figured out anyway.

Bro...I think you're jumping to extremes. A lot of people do. They think it's either a mandate or it's irrelevant and strictly for the days of the Apostles. Regarding this subject, when I showed how Paul was focused on things, "now at this time", I wasn't meaning to say that I believed that this was something strictly for their time. What Paul was talking about when he wrote, "now at this time", was the famine. In times of great growth, trouble, famine, hardship, crisis, churches and individual congregations need to come together and have all things common. We still do. Last year we had some major power outages and wind damage here in Ohio. Well, when that happened many of us converged on the church to repair it. Then we shared tools, equipment, generators, food, vehicles, watever was needed to see to it that we all got through that period of time ok. I didn't own a chainsaw...but I had one within a half hour that day (lent to me by a brother) because I needed one.

No one means that it was strictly for their time...it's just circumstantial. When faced with similar circumstances today...we pretty much do the same thing.