Genesis,creation and formation

[mfblume]

It seems we disagree on so much, and my response here is not a disappointment to that note. lol. But I respect your views.

Originally Posted by Joelel

The difference between creation in the first chapter and formation in the second chapter.The creation of God In Gen.1:1-6.So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.(It don't say how many he created. I believe he created male and female of each race)

There are differences that do not indicate two different creations. I will explain as we continue.

2:7-25 God formed Adam(formed means to take something already created and form it. This is why it says he formed Adam, it don't say he created him. So It is very clear this is two different events.)

Part of Adam was formed, part was not. Because his body was made from earth, he was formed as per his body. But Adam was still created.

Psalm 104 lists the days of creation in precisely the same order as Genesis 1 and refers to LIFE as being "created", but the earth "renewed".

Psa 104:30 KJV Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

That shows the difference between what is formed and created.

We find here ,the creation of man could eat everything but forming. Adam could not.So again we find this is two different events)

I cannot follow your statement here. "could eat everything but forming"? Please clarify.

1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

This does not prove Adam was not the man created in Genesis 1. We do not read that animals had the sort of comprisal that would allow them to KNOW GOOD AND EVIL, anyway. Adam did. Animals cannot be affected by anything that affects knowledge since they have not that capacity to begin with.

1:24-25.God created the beasts before the man and in 2;19 he formed the beasts after he formed Adam.(So here again we find these are two different events)

Incorrect. Since the emphasis of Genesis 1 is the actual creation, and the emphasis of chapter 2 is Adam and a stage being set for the downfall of mankind, we are going to read events out of chronology in Genesis 2. Gen 2 is a manner of writing that refers to creation of animals just as a sort of way of saying, "And Adam named the animals, which by the way were created from the dust of the ground." It is not saying God created them after Adam but rather explains as a side note their creation when mentioning them. This is done because the whole point of Adam naming them was to FIND A HELP METE. And the SOURCE and ORIGIN of the animals was vastly different than the woman. That explains the difference between how Eve was acceptable and the animals were not. That is why their creation form the ground was mentioned. It was not to show WHEN they were created, but FROM WHAT ORIGIN they were created. The animals came from the ground but Eve came FROM ADAM'S BODY.

This is proved by understanding the manner in which early Semitic writers wrote. I will now prove to you that Genesis 2 was not saying the animals were created AFTER Adam, but rather in the sixth day of Genesis 1 using the style of writing that these early writers used that is proved by other examples of early Semitic writing.

1Ki 7:13 KJV And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.

This above verse is mentioned in the context where the previous chapter 6 says the temple was FINISHED.

1Ki 6:9 KJV So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar.

1Ki 6:14 KJV So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

1Ki 6:37-38 KJV In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid, in the month Zif: (38) And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.

We even read of the Palace of Solomon too 13 years to build. And after we read of the temple being COMPLETED, we read, "And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram from Tyre...and he came to king Solomon, and did all his work; and made the two pillars." If we read that in a chronological manner, we would have to conclude that Solomon did not even get the men expert to build the temple to come to work UNTIL AFTER THE TEMPLE OF WAS BUILT! But it is not saying that. But that is how you read Genesis 2. It is actually the equivalent of our style of writing, "Hiram, whom Solomon fetched from Tyre, made the vessels..."

This is exactly the same case in the same Bible with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

(So again we find these are not the same events)In 2;4-5 the man didn't till the ground and 3:19 and2:15 then when he formed Adam, he did till the ground.

It just says there was no man to till the ground in 2:4-5. That did not mean man was created to do so. It shows and stresses that GOD DID THE WORK and not man. And after sin, man had to work.

6:2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.(So here we see two different groups of people,the sons of man and the Sons of God.This is where Cain got his wife from ,the sons of man.)

Another error in reading. The sons of God were Seth's descendants. They were servants of God. Since the MEN choose to marry women, and not women making the initial step to choose to marry men, and since godly men are not to marry ungodly women, we read that the SONS OF GOD (males from Seth's line) married "daughters of men" (sinner women from Cain's line).

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It seems we disagree on so much, and my response here is not a disappointment to that note. lol. But I respect your views.



There are differences that do not indicate two different creations. I will explain as we continue.

Joelel's reply,There are not two different creations listed in Gen..There is a creation in first chapter and a formation in second chapter.The word formation means to take something all ready created and form it,(did something different to it to make it different).In the case with Adam God took him from the natural creation and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul.As I said before God created more then two people in chapter one but he only took the one man Adam and formed him,this is where the sons of God came from.The ones who had the breath of life were the sons of God.The word breath means (Spirit) in the script.The people (Sons of God) In the garden had spirtual life (spitual bodies untill they got cast out of the garden.The Sons of man out side the garden didn't have spitual bodies.
There was an other creation not listed in Gen. because when God created man and woman in the first chapter he told them to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.The word replenish means to replace something that all ready was.

Part of Adam was formed, part was not. Because his body was made from earth, he was formed as per his body. But Adam was still created.

Joelels reply,All of Adam was created and then formed.

Psalm 104 lists the days of creation in precisely the same order as Genesis 1 and refers to LIFE as being "created", but the earth "renewed".

[B]Joelel reply,Man replenished the earth also.[/B]

Psa 104:30 KJV Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

[B]Joelels reply,renewest the face of the earth,Face means things on the earth.[/B]

That shows the difference between what is formed and created.



I cannot follow your statement here. "could eat everything but forming"? Please clarify.

Joel reply,Sorry I put a comma. It should say.We find here ,the creation of man could eat everything but forming Adam could not.So again we find this is two different events)1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it


This does not prove Adam was not the man created in Genesis 1. We do not read that animals had the sort of comprisal that would allow them to KNOW GOOD AND EVIL, anyway. Adam did. Animals cannot be affected by anything that affects knowledge since they have not that capacity to begin with.

[B]Joelels reply,I didn;t say Adam was not created.He was created in chapter one them formed in chapter two.[/B]

Incorrect. Since the emphasis of Genesis 1 is the actual creation, and the emphasis of chapter 2 is Adam and a stage being set for the downfall of mankind, we are going to read events out of chronology in Genesis 2. Gen 2 is a manner of writing that refers to creation of animals just as a sort of way of saying, "And Adam named the animals, which by the way were created from the dust of the ground." It is not saying God created them after Adam but rather explains as a side note their creation when mentioning them. This is done because the whole point of Adam naming them was to FIND A HELP METE. And the SOURCE and ORIGIN of the animals was vastly different than the woman. That explains the difference between how Eve was acceptable and the animals were not. That is why their creation form the ground was mentioned. It was not to show WHEN they were created, but FROM WHAT ORIGIN they were created. The animals came from the ground but Eve came FROM ADAM'S BODY.

[B]Joelels reply,The creation started in chapter one and went to chapter two and verse [4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.Then in 2: 7 started the formation.Also everything God brought to Adam in the garden was brought to him from the creation and in some way formed.[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[19] And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.I believe the ground means God took them from the natural creation.Ground meaning natural creation.Like te trees in the garden were not natural trees as we know a tree,they grew out of the ground(natural creation).[/B]

This is proved by understanding the manner in which early Semitic writers wrote. I will now prove to you that Genesis 2 was not saying the animals were created AFTER Adam, but rather in the sixth day of Genesis 1 using the style of writing that these early writers used that is proved by other examples of early Semitic writing.

[B]Joelels reply,Right the animals were created before Adam but Adam was formed and placed in the garden first and then the amimals.[/B]

This above verse is mentioned in the context where the previous chapter 6 says the temple was FINISHED.



We even read of the Palace of Solomon too 13 years to build. And after we read of the temple being COMPLETED, we read, "And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram from Tyre...and he came to king Solomon, and did all his work; and made the two pillars." If we read that in a chronological manner, we would have to conclude that Solomon did not even get the men expert to build the temple to come to work UNTIL AFTER THE TEMPLE OF WAS BUILT! But it is not saying that. But that is how you read Genesis 2. It is actually the equivalent of our style of writing, "Hiram, whom Solomon fetched from Tyre, made the vessels..."

This is exactly the same case in the same Bible with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

[B]Joelels reply,Gen.2:4 Is the end of the creation an then starts the formation.[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.[/B]

It just says there was no man to till the ground in 2:4-5. That did not mean man was created to do so. It shows and stresses that GOD DID THE WORK and not man. And after sin, man had to work.

Joelels reply,This was before he created anything.[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Another error in reading. The sons of God were Seth's descendants. They were servants of God. Since the MEN choose to marry women, and not women making the initial step to choose to marry men, and since godly men are not to marry ungodly women, we read that the SONS OF GOD (males from Seth's line) married "daughters of men" (sinner women from Cain's line).

[B]Joelels reply,Please give scripture that says the Sons of God were Seth's descendants or started with Seth ? If they were Sath's then Seth would have to be a Son of God.There has to be a starting place for the difference in the sons of God and the Sons of Man and it started in the Garden when God breathed the breath (Spirit) of life (spitual life in Adam).Everyone else God created didn't have spitual life and were sons of men.Same as today,everyone God breathes into us his Spirit we become Sons of God and everyone he don't is sons of man.This is the saved and the unsaved.Eve was the mother of all living,only those who were their off spring.[/B]

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Joelel

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Joelels reply,Please give scripture that says the Sons of God were Seth's descendants or started with Seth ? If they were Sath's then Seth would have to be a Son of God.

[

They were Seth's line and Seth was a son of God as well. It speaks of his spiritual relationship with God. Since sinners had none, they were merely sons and daughters of men.

There has to be a starting place for the difference in the sons of God and the Sons of Man and it started in the Garden when God breathed the breath (Spirit) of life (spitual life in Adam).

We also might request a starting point for the stars and sons of God who rejoiced qwith God when he created the universe. But in some cases we don't. That is why the idea of Genesis 6:1 distinctly mentions about men covering the face of the earth before this occurred. And Paul called Adam the FIRST MAN in 1 Cor 15.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mfblume

[

They were Seth's line and Seth was a son of God as well. It speaks of his spiritual relationship with God. Since sinners had none, they were merely sons and daughters of men.




We also might request a starting point for the stars and sons of God who rejoiced qwith God when he created the universe. But in some cases we don't. That is why the idea of Genesis 6:1 distinctly mentions about men covering the face of the earth before this occurred. And Paul called Adam the FIRST MAN in 1 Cor 15.

Seth was a son of Adam, what makes you think Seth was a son of God and Adam was not. Here's proof Adam was a son of God.See here we know Adam didn't die natural but he died spiritual.2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Then hear if he could reenter the garden and eat the tree of life he would regain his spiritual body.3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

Originally Posted by Joelel

[B]we know Adam didn't die natural but he died spiritual.

Do you truly comprehend what this statement implies? Lets examine the definition of the words death and spiritual.

DEATH: the ending of all vital functions without the possibility of recovery.

SPIRITUAL: a. influenced and/or controlled by the divine Spirit, and b. having a nature in which a concern for the Spirit of God predominates.

Now, IF it be that Adam experienced a "spiritual death," as your statement implies, then I would ask that you provide for me the SPECIFIC scriptural text which discloses the person(s) through whom his sons, Cain and Abel, acquired knowledge concerning their NEED to bring an [I]"offering"[I]to God as an atonement for their sins. By your reasoning it could not have been Adam because when he experienced a [I]spiritual death[I] all possibility for his acquisition of knowledge of things pertaining to God were forever severed.

Is not this what your statement implies? Please correct me if my perception of what you are asserting is amiss.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

Do you truly comprehend what this statement implies? Lets examine the definition of the words death and spiritual.

DEATH: the ending of all vital functions without the possibility of recovery.

SPIRITUAL: a. influenced and/or controlled by the divine Spirit, and b. having a nature in which a concern for the Spirit of God predominates.

Now, IF it be that Adam experienced a "spiritual death," as your statement implies, then I would ask that you provide for me the SPECIFIC scriptural text which discloses the person(s) through whom his sons, Cain and Abel, acquired knowledge concerning their NEED to bring an [I]"offering"[I]to God as an atonement for their sins. By your reasoning it could not have been Adam because when he experienced a [I]spiritual death[I] all possibility for his acquisition of knowledge of things pertaining to God were forever severed.

Is not this what your statement implies? Please correct me if my perception of what you are asserting is amiss.

Hi Don,When Adam and Eve died their Spiritual bodies died that gave them life with out death.We know they didn't die to where they didn't go on living for a time but their Spirit bodies that give them life with out death died.Gen.2:9: And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10: And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11: The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12: And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13: And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14: And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eating the tree of life gave them life with out death but when they sinned by eating the tree they were told not to they began to die or lose their Spirit body and got cast out of the garden and they could no longer eat of the tree of life that was food for their Spirit body to live,So their Spirit body died.

Gen.3: 1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2: And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18: Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Joelel

[B]Seth was a son of Adam, what makes you think Seth was a son of God and Adam was not.

I never said Adam was not a Son of God.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never said Adam was not a Son of God.

Then I'll say it: Adam was not a Son of God. He was, according to at least one of the genealogies of Jesus in the gospels, the son of God. Only Jesus is the Son of God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Chan

Then I'll say it: Adam was not a Son of God. He was, according to at least one of the genealogies of Jesus in the gospels, the son of God. Only Jesus is the Son of God.

What about us, then?

We cannot forget that Christ is the Last man Adam. His humanity now stands in the position Adam should have. And that is still the case right now.

Sons of God affect people. Adam's sin affected us all and so did Christ's obedience.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

Then I'll say it: Adam was not a Son of God. He was, according to at least one of the genealogies of Jesus in the gospels, the son of God. Only Jesus is the Son of God.

Actually the word son does not even appear in the geneology in reference to Adam. It says Adam was OF God and then Seth was the SON of Adam